Additional environmental challenges.
issueid=3920 10-08-2015 07:45 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Blasphemous: 110
Additional environmental challenges.

I think that many levels in different areas of the game are too similar to each other despite the fact that the locations' descriptions clearly state their uniqueness.
To remedy that, I thought about a couple of additions:

1) Lava flows: outpourings of magma from the core could appear in ToEF but also rarely in random deep CoC areas.
It could be like a very small river, perhaps 5-10 tiles long and random shape (but still continuous, with a clear beginning and end).
It would not be restricted by room/corridor boundaries, bridges built over it would burn (or impossible to be built in the first place), ice would melt when frozen.
Characters immune or highly resistant to fire could cross it, possibly with ring of ice/fireproof blankets to prevent item destruction.
It would be represented as light red =.
Dark forge could also have that between the forges.

2) Acid pools: I'm not sure how it could be tied to the lore, other than through connection with black dragons/wyrms.
It would appear as 2-3 tile wide pool of green =.
It would dissolve bridges, though not instantly.
It could be frozen but character's boots could still be damaged/destroyed (the frozen acid beneath you melts under your heat! your blessed seven league boots...).
Barefooted chars would take damage with respect to resistances/immunities, higher metal boots would last longer if worn instead of leather/cloth/iron.
Similarly to lava streams, item destruction would be immense if swam through, though obviously without possible methods of prevention other than avoidance or leaving items behind.
Characters with acid immunity could swim in it.

3) Lightning anomalies: obviously BDC comes to mind - this could be light blue =.
The shape would be random, ranging from 2 to 5 tiles but connected.
It would of course damage items vulnerable to shock and any living things not immune to it.
Many such random anomalies could be put on different levels of BDC and perhaps also in air temple.

4) Mana disruptions: appear as green =, it would act as magedoom eye draining when stepped on.
Chars with Wi>32 would not only be able to resist it but also to replenish some amount of PP they previously lost (or increase natural regeneration of PP wile standing on a tile, akin to Terrinyo island?)
Placement around mana temple (instead of or in conjunction with pillars around the altar) but maybe also on D50, stone circle or library.
Its default shape could be a ring of varying radius (2-4 I guess).

5) Tectonic fissures: 2-4 tiles long in similar shape to lava streams and water rivers, black =.
Chaos twists reality - both matter and spirit - as it grows more powerful and prevalent.
So, even the very Caverns of Chaos would slowly erode when the malignant energies float through the shattered foundations.
PCs could fall into the fissures without high climbing skills and experience item destruction similar to the rift (potions, scrolls, wands, missiles...), before climbing out or emerging on the level below.

Some of the above extra tile types could also be placed around orb slots to indicate their inert magical power and show how they alter environment (including already existing water tiles).
Maybe the correlated anomalies could spread randomly out after each orb is placed in its respective slot. Thematically proper I think.
Also, all of these extra tiles could have a small chance of appearing randomly, with the frequency of rivers or with increasing DL.
They could be implemented in existing locations such as fire/earth/air/mana temples or provide building blocks for something in the future (volcano?).
The interesting stuff begins when the character is stunned/confused and stumbles into one of the special tiles or items are thrown into them.
Some monsters could be made to ignore some of these obstacles, like incorporeal/flying creatures and anything immune to the destructive effects like respective demons, grues, elementals, dragons, wyrms...
Greater vaults could have these features added for extra diversity, depending on what type of monster was generated inside.

The groundwork for this is already out there so it's not such a huge project - we have blue water and red water with their separate interactions.
The rules already exist that govern the creation of random structures such as rivers so it's just a matter of adaptation.
Issue Details
Issue Number 3920
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 9
Suggested Version ADOM r61
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 7
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




10-08-2015 02:20 PM
Ancient Member
This is a fairly awesome suggestion, as it would make the final descent far more interesting, and maybe more challenging. I would also like to see demons come out of those rifts you're talking about :)

10-08-2015 02:55 PM
Ancient Member
#1 worries me - for confusing ASCII players about the difference between that and the ToTHK.

10-08-2015 03:50 PM
Ancient Member
TotHK uses dark red for its water. The fire demon/fire grue dark red.
I'm proposing the balor/chaos servant light red.
Besides, red water doesn't appear outside of the final level of TotHK and regardless, failure to use 'l'ook command on suspicious features is the player's fault.

10-08-2015 07:13 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Awesome suggestions which would make final descend really less boring.

One more from me - how about rivers of raw chaos (purple =) in the lower CoC? They could severely corrupt PC and monsters nearby / swimming through, produce wmopcs, heal chaos servants, consfuse, destroy potions turning them to raw chaos, curse the food. PoCC could explode from inventory for swimming PCs or when thrown/dropped into the river of raw chaos. CK could receive massive healing additionaly or instead of negative effects.

Bridges could work well but no freezing. Teleport control could malfunction at levels with such river teleporting you always randomly and always to the same part of the screen.

10-08-2015 07:41 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
TotHK uses dark red for its water. The fire demon/fire grue dark red.
I'm proposing the balor/chaos servant light red.
Besides, red water doesn't appear outside of the final level of TotHK and regardless, failure to use 'l'ook command on suspicious features is the player's fault.
Right now the ToTHK water stands out as the only different water in the game. Of course it's suspicious. I'm worried that a player might think dark red and light red are the same - especially players with red/green colorblindness or similar issues. So you might just assume it's lava - I don't 'l'ook at every water tile that's blue, I assume they're all water.

Actually, since the ToTHK is "chaos" related - maybe the water should be purple?

10-08-2015 08:34 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harwin
Right now the ToTHK water stands out as the only different water in the game. Of course it's suspicious. I'm worried that a player might think dark red and light red are the same - especially players with red/green colorblindness or similar issues. So you might just assume it's lava - I don't 'l'ook at every water tile that's blue, I assume they're all water.

Actually, since the ToTHK is "chaos" related - maybe the water should be purple?
Upon seeing the very first = tile game could show a message like "You see a lake. Water is filled with blood and swarmed with toothy piranias". This would fix any problems with = tile related to inattentivity, colorblindness or even blindness.

Anyway, upon loosing one PC due to this player will learn how they're different.

+Making ToTHK lake color purple would make rivers of raw chaos I suggested here impossible :(

10-08-2015 08:46 PM
Ancient Member
I like this idea overall. I might quibble about specific implementations of these, but I think that having some extra lategame dungeon features is an excellent idea.

I would suggest that these be restricted to lower CoC, maybe post wall of flames area. Deep ID and other areas (BDC, Unreal Caves, etc.) could have them as appropriate.

10-08-2015 08:57 PM
Senior Member
It would make more graphical sense for piranha lake (blood) to be dark red and lava to be light red/orange. But then you have the problem of changing the existing look which could be confusing for existing players. I feel like lava rivers in the ToEF or Volcano would be a good enough indicator that it's not normal water.... I might be against placing them in the CoC though.

On the other hand, I hate forced item destruction, so I'm not exactly a fan of adding more ways to lose items. If I have a downstairs covered by a lightning anomaly, I just have to risk it and hope for the best? And to a certain extent some things, like the mana anomaly, could be considered just a variation of the magical shock room.

10-08-2015 11:26 PM
Ancient Member
Other things that might be interesting...

Daemon gate - replaces beehive in high DL areas:
Spawns a number of experienced fire/water/air/greater daemons.

Elemental conflux - replaces ant hive in high DL areas:
Spawns a number of experienced fire/water/ice/air/earth elementals (and maybe a few greater ones).

Healing spring - replaces forge in high DL areas:
Drinking from the spring completely restores HP. Runs out after a certain number of uses (1d8, say).

Abandoned shop - appears at the same DL that mimic tension rooms appear. A random shop's inventory is simply lying on the ground for the PC to pick up. Gives the same "abandoned shop" message as mimic tension rooms (and mimic rooms should not have the tension message anymore).

Upgraded traps (either in replacement or in addition to existing traps):
Light trap -> Paralysis trap (Inflicts 1d(DL/2) turns of paralysis)
Acid trap -> Noxious gas trap (Inflicts damage + heavy poison + possible sickness)
Teleport trap -> Ceiling trap (Same as usual)
Pit trap -> Spiked pit trap (Massive damage + Bleeding!)
Viper trap -> Shallow grave (Fall into pit, spawn a group of vampires)
Fireball trap -> Elemental trap (Explosion of random element)
Alarm trap -> Magic trap (Drains a massive amount of PP, chance to Mute, removes all active spells such as Strength of Atlas, Bless, etc.)
Arrow trap -> Eternium arrow trap (Big damage, scummable)
Corruption trap -> Chaos trap (Corrupts, teleports the PC, plus chance to inflict random status effects including Blind, Deaf, Mute, Stun, Confusion, Poison, Sickness, Slow, Paralysis, Drunk, etc.)
Water trap -> Water pit trap (Replaces the tile with a river tile, PC falls in and takes drowning/water damage as appropriate)
Spear trap -> Destruction trap (Effect of wand of destruction centred on PC)
Stone block trap -> Enervating trap (Random stat drain)

10-08-2015 11:36 PM
Ancient Member
Wow, that sounds kinda scary, but I'm all for it! Maybe you should post a separate rfe for the trap idea? Also I didn't quite understand the trap with wand of destruction effect, did you mean the hp/pp drain? Or the damage to all surroundings?

10-09-2015 07:50 AM
Ancient Member
Nice ideas Jelly but I think you have been playing heroes of might and magic 3 too much.
Elemental conflux? Daemon gate? Sounds very familiar ;)

Anyway, interesting ideas.

10-09-2015 07:51 AM
Ancient Member
I would also like to hear from the 3 people that downvoted this, why do they think it's a bad idea?
Oh wait, I know. It's revenge downvoting for some imagined or real slight.

10-09-2015 02:05 PM
Ancient Member
I'm certainly not sure I like all of these (ceiling trap seems nasty).

But as Jelly says I like the *concept*.

10-09-2015 03:07 PM
Ancient Member
I downvoted this. These dungeon features look too sketchy for me. Why are they there? As I imagine dungeons in ADOM, they are somewhat conventional. There are nasty monsters (corrupted by Chaos or to be corrupted soon), some traps and that's it. All that was proposed in the original post feels out of place.

As I see now, propositions of JellySlayer are good. I would say yes to them. They are just late-game variants of what is already here.

Regarding dungeon features, I think Brogue has exceptionally good and flavorful dungeon features. Maybe some creative idea can be borrowed from there.

10-09-2015 07:46 PM
Senior Member
Sounds like more inventory destruction, which I hate with a passion, but...

These are really creative ideas that would make the game more interesting. This is exactly the kind of thinking we need. Blasphemous, you jellyslayer should keep this up.

Like I said before, we get so preoccupied with making pointless aspects of the game (like bridgebuilding) relevant, that we forget this sort of extremely imaginative thinking is what really adds to the game.

You have my vote.

10-10-2015 05:35 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I would also like to hear from the 3 people that downvoted this, why do they think it's a bad idea?
Oh wait, I know. It's revenge downvoting for some imagined or real slight.
Guess you don't need my version of the reasons, then.

10-10-2015 09:11 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
Guess you don't need my version of the reasons, then.
I want to hear them. Let's talk this out.

Look, the design principle that is being demonstrated here is the generalization of foundational concepts, and it is a very legitimate and effective way to add replayabilty to a game. Slight variations on a pre-existing idea are a really effective to maintain player interest, because they add a potentially exponential amount of unpredictability with a linear time investment. Ideally, these types of building blocks can be generated procedurally (You define a hazard that does damage when the pc steps on it, and then generalize to different elemental types of damage), but explicitly defining them as JS and Blasphemous have done way works too. This is one of the most efficient ways of diversifying player experience, actually.

I can't stress enough that this is exactly what we need. Some new ideas are understandably controversial, but new ideals that build entirely on solid, established, and widely accepted pre-existed ones should be rationally be universally accepted.

Anyway, tell me what you think, Harkila.

10-10-2015 09:58 AM
Junior Member
I'm sorry to say that my reason was the most boring one - I didn't like the concept. Not sure if I can even pinpoint the flaw there - like you said, it was a logically structured RFE and well thought through.. But not one that I liked. We already have big events in the lower CoC such as greater vaults, and this one didn't pass my test of "would this make the game more fun?" Hence, voting no.

OTOH, I hope that JellySlayer would submit an RFE for his trap & gate suggestion: those would be great. Beehives, ant colonies and traps are laughable in the lower CoC.

10-11-2015 07:14 PM
Ancient Member
I like the first two features Blasphemous suggested. The rest feel out of place for me. Real abandoned shops and upgraded traps would also be great, and I recall suggesting them myself in the past (though never through a formal RFE).

+ Reply