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New Item idea: Lamps

08-19-2012 05:10 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Number of reported issues by Aielyn: 17

New Item idea: Lamps

For consideration as new item set if crowdfunding campaign succeeds

As the title says, I'm suggesting a new idea for an item: lamps.

I can see six types of lamp that could be implemented (as tools).

1. Regular lamp. 'U'se it in the same manner as a torch (requires flint and steel, but not tinderbox), but these do not disappear when used up. Can be "recharged" using a potion of oil (Undecided on whether you dip it in the oil or 'u'se the oil), or to a lesser extent using a potion of booze.
2. Self-lighting lamp. Much like the regular lamp, but does not require flint and steel - basically, it has a built in lighting mechanism.
3. Permanent lamp. This lamp is always on when in the possession of the PC, cannot be extinguished. Rare. Useful if the PC wants a light source, but troublesome if the PC wants to cast/use darkness. Cursed permanent lamps would drain PP.
4. Faulty lamp. This lamp, on being lit, will explode in a fireball in one turn (with the extent and power of the explosion being dependent on the amount of oil in it). Can be used as a kind of grenade, providing an effect resembling Improved Fireball if lit then thrown. If not thrown, it will explode in the PC's possession, doing fire damage to the PC and any being around the PC, which could be useful if the PC has strong fire resistance/immunity and doesn't have any important items in inventory that are vulnerable to fire (or has ring of ice and fireproof blankets), and is surrounded by foes.
5. Lamp of darkness. This is a kind of inverted lamp, allowing the user to essentially create darkness instead of light around the PC. Might perhaps react badly to an amulet of light.
6. Djinni lamp. Maybe a new artifact, or maybe just a very rare item. Will grant up to three wishes (if artifact, independent of B/U/C status, if just rare item, then only for Blessed status). Lamp disappears on use of all available wishes (unlike ring, which turns to a brass ring). Could perhaps (if not an artifact) come in two flavours that are indistinguishable by unIDed or IDed name, only distinguishable by Greater Identify - Good Djinni lamp and Evil Djinni lamp. Using the Good Djinni lamp grants wishes, using the Evil Djinni lamp summons a hostile Djinni; result independent of B/U/C status.

Unlike Torches, Lamps wouldn't be useful as a melee weapon. They would be heavier than torches (say, 20s), and the ordinary burning lamps (1 and 2) would tend to have fewer turns by default than your typical torch, with the upside being that they are refillable. Could perhaps also be made of a metal that is immune to fire damage.

Issue Details

Issue Number 1186

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category Linux

Status Suggested

Priority Unknown

Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 2

Implemented Version (none)

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 4

Votes against this feature 2

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

08-19-2012 06:21 AM

pipe

Junior Member

I can't say I'm thrilled about this, but a plain ordinary oil-refillable lamp could perhaps be useful.

I have, however, one strong objection: The permanent lamp is just a big no. That'd be a bit like adding an extra toolslot. When it's in the backpack, it's packed and possibly wrapped in blankets. I could imagine an "everburning lamp" that doesn't need to be refilled, but gets covered when you stuff it in your backpack though.

And using a lamp as a weapon, it would have serious to-hit penalties, and possibly too hot to hold if it's lit.

08-19-2012 06:59 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

The way I'm viewing it, the Permanent lamp is actually magical in nature, something as trivial as some blankets and other packings would have no real impact. After all, to be permanent, it has to have some sort of non-physical energy source. Having said that, I wouldn't be averse to having it not cast additional light if in the pack - but the point is that it is always lit.

More generally, the idea is that a lamp is enclosed (think of the sort of dangling lamp with glass walls and a little flame inside it, not an Aladdin's lamp type of shape), and thus can be safely put into a backpack while lit, unlike a torch. But they'd be a lot rarer than torches, and permanent lamps rarer still (and then the really special ones, 4-6, would be the sort of item that you may see once or twice in a game, unless you're lucky).

I also want to see the ability to create your own torches, as per the suggestion you made (which is a duplicate).

Using a lamp as a weapon should be the same as, for instance, using a Large Ration, or a wooden stick, as a weapon. A faulty lamp might perhaps have a chance of breaking and coating the foe in oil when used in melee, but otherwise, lamps would really be generic objects in the context of melee.

08-19-2012 08:40 AM

pipe

Junior Member

Hehe, when it comes to wielding a lamp I visualize something like this:

Swinging the lamp somewhat uncontrollably in the fickle handle..

08-20-2012 12:05 AM

Kyreles

Senior Member

On a somewhat related note I think there should be a guaranteed wish somewhere in the game. Perhaps in a Darkforge-like place. Perhaps on ID 66? Or maybe Waldenbrooke has one if you kill him? I feel like a guaranteed wish would be a nice addition to the game. Placing one of these magic lamps somewhere (perhaps as part of a new quest?!) would be awesome.

08-20-2012 05:03 AM

Silfir

Ancient Member

"a guaranteed wish somewhere in the game"

what

08-20-2012 09:10 AM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Kyreles

If you're a wizard, there is one in the library. As long as you are ok with casting it (instead of bookcasting), it can be done without excessive work.
Imo the game doesn't need a second guaranteed source, but if it happens, it should at least be as difficult to get as getting to ID:66. A darkforge-like place would be too easy. Killing Waldenbrook is far too easy.

08-20-2012 01:40 PM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

I agree that having a guaranteed source that is even remotely easy to reach is a bad idea. But if it's something that you're never going to reach without being level 50 or so, then it's rather too late to really serve its purpose. It needs to be something very cumbersome and risky, perhaps with conditions that depend strongly on chance, but which are practically guaranteed given enough time (not unlike needing an AoLS to save Khelavaster... but multiple times over). Something that requires visiting a lot of different locations, talking with various PCs in sequence, and completing multiple difficult quests. If it's going to happen, it should be possible to find it by, say, level 25.

But I agree that a guaranteed wish doesn't make sense, because it completely defeats the point of a wish being lucky - there's a reason why you can't recharge wands of wishing, why casting Wish drains your stats. In fact, I think the biggest problem with Rings of Djinni Summoning is that using one leaves you with a ring that can then be converted back into a RoDS using a PoEx - thereby making it possible to set up the so-called "wish engine". In short, the biggest weakness of the RoDS is that it doesn't have anything to really prevent its abuse.

More items that can grant wishes, in my opinion, would be great... but only so long as they're still very rare. If there's a guaranteed one, it has to be difficult, but better for it to be pure luck.

08-20-2012 02:15 PM

Silfir

Ancient Member

The real issue with wish engines is the ability to dip 19 rings into a potion of exchange at once. Limit it to like four (as with many of the more useful potions), and you destroy the numbers without even affecting the drop chance of RoDS.

The thing with guaranteed stuff is that it will simply end up on the laundry list, just like the guaranteed artifacts and the quest rewards from Thrundarr. Most potions of extra healing, ultra healing or scrolls of chaos resistance - all exceptionally valuable items - aren't found randomly. Most endgame equipment features one or two of the guaranteed artifacts, which are carefully balanced to be useful, but not mind-shattering in the way the possible uses for a wish is. Once you put "a wish" on the laundry list of things to get, there aren't any rare items anymore except artifacts. They very idea of it makes my joints ache with lameness.

Not to mention there's already the Darkforge pools; they don't come close to guaranteeing a wish, but even that is enough to have players drinking their fetid waters with reckless abandon.

That said, if there's any place in the game right now to put it, that would have to be the Minotaur Maze.

08-21-2012 01:30 AM

Kyreles

Senior Member

Perhaps a special pool that the Minotaur Emperor stands on that on the first sip corrupts massively, and on the second sip gives a wish? Such that using it to wish for Scrolls of Chaos Resistance would be kind of pointless. Good for if you need a Scroll of Danger, or an Amulet of Life Saving. And I completely agree about the wish engines. Making it so you can only dip 4 rings at once would be a fine solution. And perhaps that you can´t pickpocket spawned/breed/duplicated creatures.

08-21-2012 02:32 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by Kyreles

And perhaps that you can´t pickpocket spawned/breed/duplicated creatures.

That's actually quite a good idea - the game already tracks whether the creature was bred, summoned, generated normally, etc... use that information with the pickpocket skill, and have it always fail on a bred or summoned creature. Should put an end to one of the other major scumming methods (the gremlin bomb).

Anyway, I agree that the only place it would make sense to have a guaranteed wish right now is the Minotaur Maze - early enough to make it have a purpose, difficult enough to challenge the player, and thematically reasonable. But it shouldn't be as simple as "get down to the final level, there's a pool there", or "massive corruption, followed by a wish". First, massive corruption can be a positive thing. Second, just getting to the bottom of the maze isn't really hard enough to make it truly difficult.

If I were in charge of implementing it, I'd have some sort of additional quest necessary to have the pool generate, and I'd have some major drawbacks introduced into the pool. Something like... Every stat drops by 3 on first sip, -Fate -Lucky +Curse +Doom on second sip, and then the wish on the third sip, finishing the pool. Short of scumming to get extra-high stats to begin with, the first one will hurt a level 30 PC pretty badly, I think. The second one is more inconvenience than true harm, since a level 30 PC should have methods for addressing cursing and dooming, in my opinion. But it does make it so that it's essentially a guaranteed negative effect on the first sip, and a potentially troublesome second sip.

08-21-2012 09:06 AM

Silfir

Ancient Member

I'd go for a scroll or somesuch hidden in any possible spot on any of the levels, including the fake ones, that grants a wish at the cost of -5 to every stat. At least. Item detection won't work.

That is if I were forced at gunpoint.

08-25-2012 03:17 PM

Evil Knievel Evil Knievel is offline

Ancient Member

loĺ :)
put that scroll it deep down, make it work as a scroll of amnesia erasing all knowledge of maze levels, have it destroy everything edible lying on the floors and in your inventory, and change your satiation to very hungry and take away tp control

the list could go on: make all the maze dark on the instant, increase background corruption massively, revive the minotaur emperor ...

no, seriously, no guaranteed wishes through anything else than a mean you-are-not-really-meant-to-try-this-procedure.

08-25-2012 03:29 PM

Lasher

Ancient Member

Back on topic with the lamps! Make it so they don't go out from water traps! I always want either more torches or some other light source so I am 100% behind this idea! Give me torches, lamps, candles, and glowsticks! I *hate* not starting the game with a torch, and never finding one!

What kind of "Adventurer" says, "I'm gonna go explore a whole bunch of dark UNDERGROUND caves and dungeons, and not pack a torch!" Seriously, wtf?!

11-22-2012 05:52 AM

Pim

Member

Upvoted.

I'm not quite clear on whether the #3 permanent lamp is supposed to be a bad thing. (As carrying one would preclude the use of Stealth.) Nevertheless, all interesting and viable candidates imho.

11-22-2012 09:31 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by Pim

I'm not quite clear on whether the #3 permanent lamp is supposed to be a bad thing. (As carrying one would preclude the use of Stealth.) Nevertheless, all interesting and viable candidates imho.

It's supposed to be an item that has both benefits and drawbacks. A permanent light source would prevent the need for torches, amulets of light, the Light spell, etc, and would protect the PC from being "eaten by a grue" if doomed, but it would also negate stealth and the use/abuse of darkness as a tactical method.

11-22-2012 03:53 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

How about the pool in the 'Stone Circle'. The sip that empties it is your guaranteed wish. Difficult to reach, dangerous to reach and some new corruptions. Have your wish.

Has anyone ever emptied that pool, maybe there is already a prize. Otherwise it can be the prize the ratling talks about.

11-22-2012 04:55 PM

JellySlayer JellySlayer is offline

Ancient Member

I don't like the idea of guaranteed wishes at all. Like Silfir, I'd say the only place for it currently that would be sensible is the maze. I'd do something like this:

One of the false levels (level 4 or lower) will have an extra staircase. If you take this staircase, you will ascend into the middle of a fairly small room (maybe about the size of the top pyramid level), with very little cover. The room will be filled with a large number of minotaurs--perhaps 15 minotaur mages, and 15 minotaur kings, all in fairly close proximity to the PC so you get massive confusion/stat drain carnage. A random minotaur mage will drop the wish. One you leave the level, you may never return.

As for lamps, I'd prefer to just make it that you can create your own torches from existing items: wooden sticks + bandages + oil or something. And maybe you can randomly make flint and steel from smelting iron ore. At present, I think there's too much overlap here with existing items.

11-26-2012 07:14 AM

_Ln_

Ancient Member

I think guaranteed wish is great. If you want to make an ultra, but fail to find a scroll of danger in loads of turn, you just lose interest. I don't like any guaranteed bad effects, this is not in the spirit of the game IMHO. RNG should be involved as usual.

I would like to see something like a cave or wilderness location with an island in the middle and a RoDS on this island. It's surrounded by magical liquid, which cannot be frozen and you can't make a bridge. Teleport is of course disabled. Every turn swimming in this thing behaves like a pool, but with more drastic effects, like severe stat drains, massive damage. Or nothing of course, if you are lucky or even positive increases (+ max hp or something). Layout of the lake is always different, so a number of turns to swim varies. So, if you want a wish, you can reliably do it if you can handle consequences (which you probably will by the time). In short, it's like pools but with guaranteed wish but greater risk.

Level cap is quite possibly necessary or maybe not to allow great potential for speed-runnings.

11-26-2012 11:11 AM

Grey

Ancient Member

A guaranteed wish is fine if it comes with severe repercussions and is level-limited (not a hard level cap, but a certain HP cost for instance).

11-26-2012 04:25 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

It'd be awesome to go through the whole ordeal, then just wish for the emperor moloch. :D

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