[Balance]Banshee
issueid=1376 12-04-2012 04:05 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by JellySlayer: 114
[Balance]Banshee

I think one of the nasty things about the Banshee level for unprepared/underprepared PCs is the fact that it is quite possible that, upon immediately opening the door to the Banshee room, the PC can die without having a chance to react to her presence. Her room is pretty small--about 4x6, I think, and the range on her wail is a 3 square radius, so the odds of getting hit when you open the door are pretty high.

A few simple fixes might be:
-Reduce the range of the wail from 3 squares to 2, giving a bit more buffer room.
-Greatly increase the size of the Banshee's room. Maybe 6x8 would be appropriate.
-Make the Banshee's wail do damage proportional with distance rather than instant kill in its entire range. Perhaps it takes 33% of max HP per turn at 3 square range, 66% of max HP per turn at 2 square range, and only guaranteed to be lethal if she is adjacent.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1376
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 6
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 5
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-04-2012 04:18 PM
Senior Member
You're suggesting this to balance the banshee level itself, not the abuse of using it in the forest or bugcav? We're trying to make it easier for unspoiled players to get past her on the first attempt and the reduced effectiveness for abuse is just incidental? I'm not entirely sure I want her to be easier for unspoiled players, but I do think some type of change to make scumming with a banshee less profitable or more difficult would be nice.

12-04-2012 05:01 PM
Ancient Member
With all the ingame warnings about the Banshee and the corpses scattered about and the message when you first enter the level, the PC of a player not vigilant enough should die.

edit - besides the whole point of the Banshee is to kill under/unprepared PC's. I feel like screaming.

12-04-2012 05:52 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
With all the ingame warnings about the Banshee and the corpses scattered about and the message when you first enter the level, the PC of a player not vigilant enough should die.

edit - besides the whole point of the Banshee is to kill under/unprepared PC's. I feel like screaming.
Opening a random door and being instantly killed by a monster you never saw does not have anything to do with preparedness, IMHO. Simply making the room bigger does not negate the problems associated with actually killing/surviving the Banshee, for example. It just reduces/removes the possibility of an unpredictable instadeath.

[edit]@Kyreles: I believe that there already is a thread dealing with the banshee/forest problem. IMHO, BugCave is not a problem since you can only do it using a wished-for Banshee.

12-04-2012 06:05 PM
Ancient Member
Vigilance is key. An unspoiled player who spots this many random corpses lying around, together with the special message, should be vigilant and scared off their rockers, ready to run at a moment's notice. (How else would you get this far unspoiled, anyway?) All you need to do is prevent them from dying an instadeath until they spot the banshee. From that point forward, they can read her monster description, and know everything they need to know. If they don't check the description or don't understand its implications, then... Death is a perfectly fair result. It's a banshee.

Just make sure they can spot the banshee without instantly dying, and everything's as it should be.

I mean: Just what kind of banshee has a wail that doesn't kill you? That's not scary, that's lame.

12-04-2012 07:02 PM
Ancient Member
One could also make the freezer/room door free and always have a corridor(s) leading to the entrance(s) of the room. That way you'll always spot her out of range, unless blind or Pe extremely low, etc.

But making her/it deal damage with her/it's wail, I do not agree with.

12-04-2012 09:59 PM
Ancient Member
Just to be clear: I'm not suggesting that all of the changes that are listed above need to come into effect. I think that any one of those changes would probably be sufficient to solve the problem.

[edit]Or presumably, other alternatives could work too. I agree with Silfir: Big thing is that the player should have the opportunity to at least see and react to the Banshee's presence without being instakilled.

12-05-2012 01:18 AM
Senior Member
Perhaps simply make it so that the Banshee remains in the centre of her room until/unless the PC enters or the door is opened. Kind of like a special Threat room. If the room is adjusted to be an odd size to give an exact centre (5x7 would work), then, factoring in the door, the PC should be 4 spaces away from the Banshee in the worst case scenario. I'm assuming that the Banshee can either wail or move, not both, in one turn.

If the Banshee has one random monster in the room with her when the PC enters, and her first action is to wail, it would also serve as an effective physical demonstration of her wail's power. That way, the player is given direct warning.

12-05-2012 05:38 AM
Ancient Member
Just on a side note: As a new unspoiled player reaching the banshee for the first time, you've lost many, many, many PC's and some were insta-deaths.
So dying from the banshee wail when encountering her/it for the first time is not too bad, relatively speaking. Sure it's a bit further into the game, but once a player has made it thus far, it becomes easier with each new character to reach the midgame.
That's my experience anyway and it is what made it fun to play, thinking you have this powerful character and the next moment it's dead. It prepares a player better for the endgame.

12-05-2012 02:43 PM
Ancient Member
Just making her room bigger would be sufficient. That way you can open the door and get a chance of looking at her before your horrible death.

12-05-2012 04:45 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Aielyn
If the Banshee has one random monster in the room with her when the PC enters, and her first action is to wail, it would also serve as an effective physical demonstration of her wail's power. That way, the player is given direct warning.
This is the simplest and best measure as far as I see it.

12-05-2012 04:51 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by anon123
This is the simplest and best measure as far as I see it.
There is 3 votes against and 0 for this feature. I think the best measures are already in place.

The ears are not working, well done. The ears are working, hopefully the next time around they won't( or she/it won't get a chance to be heard ).

12-06-2012 12:17 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Aielyn
Perhaps simply make it so that the Banshee remains in the centre of her room until/unless the PC enters or the door is opened. Kind of like a special Threat room. If the room is adjusted to be an odd size to give an exact centre (5x7 would work), then, factoring in the door, the PC should be 4 spaces away from the Banshee in the worst case scenario. I'm assuming that the Banshee can either wail or move, not both, in one turn.

If the Banshee has one random monster in the room with her when the PC enters, and her first action is to wail, it would also serve as an effective physical demonstration of her wail's power. That way, the player is given direct warning.
If the banshee is in sight range and the player is not dead, they can check the monster description and learn everything they need to know. You don't have to shove the entire mystery into their face.

Especially since the banshee is in a closed and locked room to begin with. How did the monster get in there and survive just to die right in front of your face, by lucky happenstance? That wouldn't make any sense.

There are several in-game sources that reference the banshee and the danger she poses. There is a clear visual warning in the random corpses and the level message (I think). Once you've made sure opening the banshee room doesn't cause an instadeath, you've done all you ever need to do. Anything more just kills flavor.

12-06-2012 12:58 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
Especially since the banshee is in a closed and locked room to begin with. How did the monster get in there and survive just to die right in front of your face, by lucky happenstance? That wouldn't make any sense.
Same way that you can lock a room in any dungeon, spend a few turns, open the room, and find a monster in it. Chaos. Of course, in this case, the "chaos" produces a consistent effect. But think of it like the introduction of a boss in games like Zelda.

I'm pretty sure the primary issue with the Banshee is that you can't know what, specifically, you're facing until it's too late. Saying "the corpses should warn you" doesn't make sense, because it doesn't tell you what you're actually going to face, just that it's dangerous. It certainly doesn't tell you that instakill is guaranteed if you're too close. And no, the monster memory isn't a solution, either. And methods of learning about the banshee are purely a matter of luck, there's no way, short of spoiling, to guarantee that a new player learns anything about the banshee other than that a creature called the "banshee" exists and can kill immediately, and that's only after dying to it once.

Something as simple as my suggestion provides a clean way to reveal the power of the banshee without killing the PC, but still placing the PC in danger (of course, if you're unlucky or crazy enough to teleport into her room, there's a good chance of an instakill on arrival as her first wail is triggered by your entrance).

12-06-2012 02:41 AM
Ancient Member
The banshee, a luminous spirit, manages to appear sad and angry at the same time, obviously a being in an enraged lamentation. Her wail is renowned as it is filled with such sorrow and hopelessness that most who hear it abandon life instantly, passing beyond their current pains.
That's the monster memory, instantly available the moment you spot the banshee. It tells you quite plainly that hearing her wail is deadly. The thing also has an average speed of 100, so running like a bitch is a perfectly natural and completely sufficient response.

You're saying "no, the monster memory isn't a solution either" - how on earth is it not? It isn't enough to make the crucial information they need available by the simple examination of their surroundings?

You're also saying "methods of learning about the banshee are purely a matter of luck", which is complete hogwash. There's a mad minstrel song and (provided it is made sure the player survives spotting the banshee) the aforementioned monster description. Players can miss those, sure, but that has nothing to do with luck, and everything to do with how thoroughly and cautiously they explore. It's called Ancient Domains of bloody Mystery; collecting clues (like randomly strewn about bodies that never rot) and realizing their meaning in time is a huge part of what makes ADOM ADOM. This is a dangerous world that will screw you up if you aren't paying attention, be it in combat or exploration.

It's not the kind of game that shows a huge honking arrow over your head, telling you where to go at all times; that kind of game would have a clearly established "The Banshee" questline, in which you first have to get the Beeswax quest item to even get access to the Banshee's lair, which you're planning to raid about 200 times because the Banshee has a 0.1% chance to drop a green legendary epic set item and in the level rage from 22-26 gives more XP per invested game time than the big snake thing you had a lvl46 buddy help you farm a couple of levels ago.

It's also not Legend of Zelda. I love Ocarina of Time to death, believe me, but among the many different things it did right is that it encouraged exploration and required you to listen to people and examine hints and clues. It's also more of an action game. But, even in Ocarina of Time, there are insteadeath-dealing monsters in the Forest Temple; the big hulking hands that descend from the ceiling and cause a game over if they grab you. Luckily, they announce their presence by a looming shadow over your head and an ominous sound effect. Guess what they don't do? Snatch another monster upwards right in front of your eyes. Clues and warnings are enough.

12-06-2012 02:41 AM
Junior Member
Maybe having Thundrarr talk about the next scary thing going down by asking him for "advice" or something to give vague hints about things like the graveyard, the water temple, etc

12-06-2012 02:52 AM
Ancient Member
Does Thrundarr already recognize "banshee" as a term? He probably should.

12-06-2012 02:52 AM
Ancient Member
There are several cookie messages concerning the banshee, some of them warning you to watch out for a place full of corpses, some of them hinting at deafness and one of them specifically telling you to use beeswax. If you have read all the messages and manage to put the pieces of information together, you will likely survive at first try. Then again, personally I'm pretty neutral on this issue.

12-06-2012 03:28 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
Does Thrundarr already recognize "banshee" as a term? He probably should.
He does. His clue is pretty detailed:
"Aye, a truly horrible beast ye mention. Once she wuzz an evil elven witch. A mighty dwarven hero killed her many centuries ago, but she returned from hell. Now she guards one of the deeper levels. Ye should see to it, that yer ears are plugged, when ye encounter her."
He gives reasonably good advice on most things above the wall of flames.

12-06-2012 04:26 AM
Junior Member
He does. But how is a new player going to know to ask him about it? There would need to be a guaranteed fotune cookie room or something to pique their curiosity

12-06-2012 04:30 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
That's the monster memory, instantly available the moment you spot the banshee. It tells you quite plainly that hearing her wail is deadly. The thing also has an average speed of 100, so running like a bitch is a perfectly natural and completely sufficient response.
The monster memory is something that you know to look at for that sort of information. Many other players don't.

The idea behind having a moment showing the danger of the banshee is exactly the same as, for instance, the messages that are generated by greater molochs - warnings that you are facing a mighty being. Seeing corpses isn't enough, because without knowing why the corpses are there, you are as likely to think that it's more of a "site of an ancient war" kind of thing, unless you've seen the right messages.

Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
You're saying "no, the monster memory isn't a solution either" - how on earth is it not? It isn't enough to make the crucial information they need available by the simple examination of their surroundings?
It doesn't solve the primary problem, which is the case of instakill before the player can know what they're facing. Besides which, there is no monster before the banshee (typically) that is capable of instakilling irrespective of PC stats - there's no reason for the player to think that such an ability is found within the game, and thus is less likely to look at the monster memory expecting it to say "get too close, and you're going to die".

Quote Originally Posted by Silfir
You're also saying "methods of learning about the banshee are purely a matter of luck", which is complete hogwash.
There's no specific reason to assume that the player will visit the minstrel before reaching the Banshee, or that the player will sit through and listen to every one of the minstrel's songs, and realise that he's talking about things in the game (especially given that some of them don't help, so much as give back-story). Similarly, fortune cookie messages aren't reliable enough to expect the player to learn of the banshee in time.

While it shouldn't be necessary to "learn" of the banshee to reach her level, information should be put in the player's path, enough so that most players will be capable of piecing things together. This isn't to say that every step of the game should be spelled out, but instakills are a rather special case, and the player should be given a little more forewarning.

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