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[Balance] The transition between Hunger --> Starvation is too quick

12-08-2012 06:17 PM

Toffeeviola Toffeeviola is offline

Junior Member

Number of reported issues by Toffeeviola: 7

[Balance] The transition between Hunger --> Starvation is too quick

While it takes a significant amount of time to go from [no status] to Hungry, it takes comparatively little time to transition to Very Hungry and then reach outright Starving. In fact, the effect can be so pronounced that if you get the 'Hungry' notice in the middle of a medium-sized combat (with say 15-20 enemies) you can feasibly be Starving before you can safely exit the combat.

My problem with this is counter-intuitive. While Starving (rightfully) hammers your attributes, in my view it kills you off far too quickly. If we look to real life, we could see that starving individuals can last for weeks or months in their weakened condition. Meanwhile in ADOM they would be lucky to last a few days.

As things stand you need to go there the very instant you run out of food at the latest (I have a personal rule where I head back to resupply if I go down to my last 2 rations). It is quite literally a race to get food in a couple of days before you die of malnutrition.

I think this is a shame because I believe being able to (or being forced to) play in a weakened state can be one of the more harrowing and memorable experiences when playing ADOM. Trying to get back to somewhere to stock up on food can be fun, especially if you are suddenly vulnerable in combat. Additionally, pressing on despite being at a significant disadvantage is a cool strategy you don't really have the option to try at the minute because Starvation is so rapid and lethal. But humanoids aren't built that way. The way we store fat specifically guards against exactly that kind of food-shortage scenario.

I propose the following:

> Contract the distance between [no status] and 'Hungry'. This means that the player becomes aware earlier on that they need to go and acquire food. It would also take some of the panic out of seeing the 'Hungry' warning and normalize it somewhat.

> Drastically reduce energy consumption for all actions when 'Starving'. This represents the body conserving energy by burning fat more slowly.

> Possibly reduce the universal quantity of food drops to compensate. This will have the knock-on effect of making the 'Survival' and 'Food Preparation' traits more useful/crucial relative to other skills.

> Nerf the number of Fried Bats etc. purchasable at the Arena, or at least raise the number of stones fast foods weighs. At the moment as soon as I hit the Arena my food worries are as good as over.

Issue Details

Issue Number 1399

Issue Type Bug

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category All

Status Fixed

Priority 5 - Medium

Affected Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7

Fixed Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 9

Milestone (none)

Users able to reproduce bug 5

Users unable to reproduce bug 1

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

12-08-2012 06:56 PM

Toffeeviola Toffeeviola is offline

Junior Member

Accidentally posted this in the wrong section. I would be much obliged if a moderator could move it :-)

12-08-2012 07:14 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

These guys/galls are super muscular strong types, they don't have much fat reserves. When they get hungry, it means they need to eat very soon.

Keep your PC nourished, close to Satiated and you shouldn't run the risk of getting starved during most fights. Unless you are playing a Troll, Strained(you can always postpone your strenght training till after the fight), Invisible, Corrupted or Wearing artifacts.

I think your first suggestion is fine, but that's all.

12-08-2012 07:15 PM

cyrilverba cyrilverba is offline

Junior Member

If it gets moved, I'll support. Haven't seen it in changelogs anywhere, but I'm starting to think the hungry->very->starving transition is getting faster and faster every version.

12-08-2012 07:22 PM

Toffeeviola Toffeeviola is offline

Junior Member

Originally Posted by Stingray1

Keep your PC nourished, close to Satiated and you shouldn't run the risk of getting starved during most fights. Unless you are playing a Troll, Strained, Invisible, Corrupted or Wearing artifacts.

I think your first suggestion is fine, but that's all.

To clarify I almost never experience trouble getting enough food. In fact I believe that on the whole food is probably too plentiful in ADOM.

The entirety of my complaint is that on the rare occasion I do run out of food my character seems to keel over almost immediately.

It's just that it's a huge disconnect from real life.

These guys/galls are super muscular strong types, they don't have much fat reserves. When they get hungry, it means they need to eat very soon.

I'm sorry but a) That isn't necessarily true -that depends on your character's build, and b) that doesn't make any sense. Muscles ARE the body's last-resort energy store. If the characters are as muscular as you state their muscles are a substantial food source in themselves. You don't see muscular starved people for precisely that reason.

12-08-2012 07:28 PM

paivi

Member

In prerelease 6, a wizard went from "hungry" to "starving" in while hitting a kobold a couple of times. No artifacts, invisibility or other food consumption increasing items that I know of. A bit fast, yes.

12-08-2012 08:16 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by paivi

I've played a few(3) random characters: I think Gnome archer, Gray elf Bard, Gray Elf Elementalist. Haven't noticed any difference. Two puppies and Dwarftown, one HMV, one all dwarftown quests.

What race were/are you playing? This could be a race specific bug.

12-08-2012 08:18 PM

Mar the Kraken Mar the Kraken is offline

Junior Member

Seconded!

I agree that some strategy dynamic could be added here. As it stands, any ADoM'er who has played the game more than a few times will know how damning a lack of food can be, but being forced to immediately seek calorie refuge is hardly fun and - as Toffeevoila quite rightly points out - is rather silly.

Extending the game turns between each hunger stage and staggering stat reduction over a greater number of satiation stages would provide the player with a strategy choice - either turn back to safety via a guaranteed source of food, or press on in cases where the trade-off between stat reduction + possible starvation and completing your current goal favours the latter. The rapid transition currently in place does not provide this option at all - and I believe it is one that many players would welcome.

12-08-2012 08:24 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

If I may, suggest. How about a calorie counter right at the bottom of the main view? Don't think it will be too hard to implement, but I'm no programmer.

12-08-2012 08:27 PM

paivi

Member

Originally Posted by Stingray1

What race were/are you playing? This could be a race specific bug.

High Elf. I'll try to replicate it and will submit as a bug if successful.

12-09-2012 12:46 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

I think some extra warning could be added by adding an extra status. And I'd also add in some negative effects to worse levels of hunger prior to starvation, if they're not already present (I don't spend much time in hungry states except where I have no choice, which usually results in death, so I don't know what effects might already be present).

Anyway, here's what I'd have:

Normal
Hungry (no negative effects, just a warning) - kicks in much earlier than the current "Hungry" state.
Famished - kicks in where the current "Hungry" state does, causes some minor To and St abuse.
Ravenous - kicks in where "Hungry!!" currently does, causes significant To and St abuse, and minor abuse to Le, Dx, Wi, and Ap.
Starving - unchanged from the current setup, except adding further stat abuse beyond the temporary stat drops.

12-09-2012 09:16 AM

Toffeeviola Toffeeviola is offline

Junior Member

I have to say, I quite like those suggestions Aielyn.

12-09-2012 10:00 AM

Mar the Kraken Mar the Kraken is offline

Junior Member

Originally Posted by Stingray1

If I may, suggest. How about a calorie counter right at the bottom of the main view? Don't think it will be too hard to implement, but I'm no programmer.

I suppose implementing a calorie counter as one of the dynamic display cycle options (:t) could be done, but I fail to see any use for it - I certainly wouldn't use it.

The concern here is not that hunger creeps up on and surprises us, it doesn't. The concern is the rate at which you die after only supposedly becoming 'Hungry' a day or so ago.

I like the suggestions Aielyn has made, but would suggest extending the satiation range for both 'Hungry' and 'Famished', and decreasing the transition time exponentially - thereby emphasising the severity of your situation once you do reach 'Ravenous' or 'Starving'

12-09-2012 03:11 PM

Dervi

Member

Most of the last characters I played died from starvation. I checked the "time" and you could go from Hungry to Starving in a couple Ancardian minutes.

12-09-2012 03:44 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Dervi

Most of the last characters I played died from starvation. I checked the "time" and you could go from Hungry to Starving in a couple Ancardian minutes.

If you want to make ADOM realistic wrt to nutrition, then food will not be of any concern any more. In real life ppl can live without food for days.
I think the current system is working as intended.

In Ancardia food isn't as nutritious as in RL.

As in the original poster's 1st suggestion:

Maybe request that the 'Very Hungry' status moved further away from the 'Starving' status and 'Hungry' closer to 'Normal'. That will have no impact on the current system and you won't move from 'Very Hungry' to 'Starving' so quickly.

12-09-2012 03:50 PM

anon123

Ancient Member

With regular loaves of bread that weight 2 kilo and 10kg large rations, I can see why starvation is a common problem in Ancardia.

12-09-2012 04:16 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by anon123

With regular loaves of bread that weight 2 kilo and 10kg large rations, I can see why starvation is a common problem in Ancardia.

Good point, that's why their oversized tummies get so full so quickly and empty so fast. These folk need to eat plenty to stay alive, because of the low nutritional value of food.

12-09-2012 06:53 PM

SirTheta

Ancient Member

@Aielyn: "abuse" in the context of ADOM almost always refers to negative training of stats, meaning they actually drop at the next skill check. I hope that is not what you mean.

12-10-2012 03:43 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by SirTheta

@Aielyn: "abuse" in the context of ADOM almost always refers to negative training of stats, meaning they actually drop at the next skill check. I hope that is not what you mean.

I meant abuse as in the accumulated reduction in stats. Meaning, if you spend extended periods of time in famished or ravenous, you can expect to lose points in those stats, but if you're only famished or ravenous for a few turns, before eating, then you should be fine.

Basically, it's like how spending time overburdened abuses Dexterity, or how spending time in a Dull Room abuses Learning. Entering a dull room doesn't mean your Learning will drop at the next skill check.

So yes, I do mean negative training, but not to an extreme extent.

12-11-2012 10:06 AM

Toffeeviola Toffeeviola is offline

Junior Member

I know bumping is frowned upon. But it'd be nice to see the issue either tackled or rejected :)

12-12-2012 04:29 AM

SirTheta

Ancient Member

I think any negative training is a bad idea.

Anyway, I support this suggestion. It would be a pretty simple aesthetic fix to move Hungry up a little bit on the satiation chart to give you a little more time/warning.

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