Ah, they were meant to be similar. Interesting.

Similar doesn`t have to mean identical, and in the late game the only difference is +- 10% in any stat, because when they get into 40s the starting differences are hardly noticable.

I too would like to see a more meaningful distinction between them in gameplay terms, right now it really does feel like the same race, just with the option to start L or N.

In most cases I think the more diversity in the races the merrier, especially if it reaches the point of increasing replay value or introduces new playstyles. I very rarely pick lawful races myself because they're just less versatile when it comes to quest options and dealing with altars. Unless I was heavy into roleplaying a lawful character, or there was a very attractive advantage to choosing one, then I won't, but that's me. To me high elves are a slightly gimped grey elf. :P

To add onto the differences between Gray and High Elves.

- High Elves heal naturally once every 60 turns. Gray Elves heal Once every 65. (Not very significant, but it matters in corner cases).

- High Elves regenerate power once every 40 turns. Gray Elves regenerate once every 25. (THIS is the big one. They regenerate PP 1.6 times faster than their "tankier" siblings. High Elves are darn fine at their job, but Gray Elves are second to (n)one.

- High Elves are slightly penalized when shopping at Chaotic owned stores (Troll, Orc, Dark Elf). Gray Elves are hated, and the only deals they get are from themselves, and High Elves, ironically.

- While Gray Elves have good Dexterity scores, High Elves typically tend to outdo their hated brethren. On the flip side, High Elves have respectable Mana scores; Gray Elves surpass them by a decent margin, hence why they're the among the best (behind You Know Whos) in pure casting.

- On the subject of stats, typically, High Elves have slightly better toughness scores (oh, don't get me wrong, they're bad, oh my goodness, but when you're comparing twigs to toothpicks, you have to take everything you get), Charisma, and Strength. On the flip side, Gray Elves get slightly better willpower scores.

- Starting alignment might be pretty, minor, in the grand scheme of things, it's still important to note. High Elves start out Lawful, Gray Elves start as Neutral. Gray Elves have a slight slant towards the "Wand" star sign, because of it. (On that note, things like Book, Unicorn, and Tree make them matter a teensy bit more).

This isn't a bad suggestion, by any means... but they have differences. I don't think one should have a skill tacked on that the other just doesn't get, or two of them getting a different skill while trying to weigh one against the other to call them "balanced". Unless you mean something else? Please explain.

I didn't realize there were those differences. That's interesting.

I think to some extent the problem is that when you have this many races (and you aren't willing to add what would probably be really difficult to implement abilities like in crawl) some of them are going to end up being pretty similar.

I feel like we have kind of gone overboard on elves in particular, and that's why they the different elf types are starting to run together. Thematically at least, gray and mist elves fill the same role (frail, attractive, agile, and good casters). The rational thing to do here would probably be to get rid of one of the elf types, or trade it in for a race that really is new and different. Honestly, I think quicklings would be a good substitute for high elves.

Really? I dunno, for me quicklings have no real identity besides "weak and fast". I don't even have a clear image of what they look like when I think of a quickling, they seem kind of boring...

To be honest, I would like to see even crazier races with unique racial abilities, since just about every variation of stats is covered by the existing cast. More things along the lines of drakelings. Example, another roguelike has a human/bird race that gains the ability to fly for limited periods of time, kinda physically frail but has some melee bonuses with extra unarmed attack due to talons (also restricted in slot usage but that seems not something adom would implement). Shit, I can't think of many good ideas right now, but I think the general concept is clear.

I guess attractive thing about them is that high speed and low durability would be easy to implement. Like I said before, we aren't likely to see many race abilities per se (like drakeling spit) adom just doesn't seem to want to do that kind of thing. There is no speed focused race right now (I don't think elf dex even ever gives you > 105 speed). So it would at least be different from everything else, which the current elf races certainly are not.

Except substantial speed differences. And I would like to see crazy racial abilities too, but it's not ever going to happen.

Someone has already thought of good ideas. Look at crawl's races. They are really, really diverse.

Also, when something doesn't work well in that game, it is actually removed. Look at the changelog.

I, seriously think, Mist Elves have much major differences from Gray Elves, without stating the obvious ones (one has guaranteed concentration). Comparing ME's to GE's and HE's is like comparing DE's to GE's and DE's (and don't get me started on how radically different a DE and a ME are, to the point where one starts with LITERACY, whereas the other doesn't).

I feel like Elf variation is just enough for one to realize, while High Elf might make a potentially outstanding Barbarian, a Mist Elf wouldn't, because some of their crucial skills are ignored because of the class's inherent bias against magic, or maybe that your Gray Elf Archer might segway into some pretty potent semi-casting, while your Dark Elf won't do as well.

That being said, please, Mister Biskup, no more elves.

Personally I think mist elves should not be elves. Call them mistlings or something. It's a minor cosmetic change but I feel like mist elves belittle the other elves, being to other elves what elves are to humans, making it feel less awesome to choose an elf. The overly flowery description of mist elves in the manual doesn't help.

I think the biggest offending point are their identical skillset.

They both get Dodge, Literacy, Listening, Stealth.

It would be nice if they were further moved into fighter/archer and mage categories.

High Elves: add Archery, Fletchery, Two Weapon Combat
Grey Elves: add Alchemy

Yes please =D

Alchemy would be a very interesting addition to the Grey Elf's powers, though I think Fletchery makes High Elves just a tad too flexible. Archery would be VERY cool, and two weapon combat is situationally useful, which I like.

All in all, I would be very happy to see distinct, useful skills added to these two classes to differentiate them from others, though the argument is a little weak, considering Mister Biskup is set on making them similar (and they do have a considerable slew of differences that make their strategies diverge in the early-mid to mid game).

Wishful thinking, _Ln_, but maybe you could propose this as an [RFE]? Try to explain yourself, and your motives. Blasphemous is an intelligent, well respected member of the community (along with you) and will speak in favor of your proposal, one would think. I can name reasons why one would disagree with this proposal, but most of them are weak (I'm thinking of tradition, initial intent, and potentially making one too much more powerful than the other, though people will argue that Grey Elves are the better of the two similar keebs.)

You have my support for a more detailed [RFE] for GE/HE diversity.

I really don't want to create another RFE about the same thing but different skill choices (OP wants Healing; Athletics/Food Press and I want Archery; Alchemy). I'm content with a thread comment. If you wish to use the idea, feel free to do it, I don't mind.

In general introduce a lot more of PERMANENT differences to the classes and races.

I don't like at all, that all the classes and races are the same, when the stats and skills (and regeneration levels from corpses + age) are the same. The only thing that make permanent difference are class powers.

This could be easily remedied by changing for example weapon skills, limit stats and skills (absolute maximums, not even wishes work).

It's just stupid, that given time the weakest hurthling mage can be as fearsome in melee as the greatest troll barbarian ever walked on Ancardia.