R67 Point-based Character Creation
issueid=4381 08-13-2016 11:58 AM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by Halon: 1
R67 Point-based Character Creation
The actual stats having created a new character don't reflect the point-based system selection

I'm hesitant to post in case I've misunderstood how the new point-based character creation works so forgive me if I have...

Having added and taken away point for various character types (tried HE Elf, Dwarf Barbarian, Orc Choas Knight, Mist Elf Wizard) the attributes each character actual had when starting the game had no apparent connection to the way I had chosen. I've created a few characters without changing the base stats for a Dwarven Barbarian as an example:
St:18 Le:9 Wi:13 Dx:10 To:16 Ch:8 Ap:8 Ma:6 Pe:12. The results for 3 actual characters are as follows:

St:19 Le:13 Wi:14 Dx:10 To:21 Ch:4 Ap:8 Ma:6 Pe:12
St:23 Le:10 Wi:13 Dx:11 To:22 Ch:6 Ap:9 Ma:6 Pe:14
St:18 Le:10 Wi:15 Dx:11 To:18 Ch:4 Ap:8 Ma:3 Pe:14

Playing on Windows 10. What other information would be helpful?
Issue Details
Issue Number 4381
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 10 (Steam)
Status Fixed
Priority Unknown
Affected Version ADOM r67 (v2.2.1)
Fixed Version (none)
Milestone "Resurrect ADOM" Indiegogo Fulfillment
Users able to reproduce bug 3
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




08-13-2016 12:10 PM
Ancient Member
Getting the same thing.

I think there's still some element of randomness involved, although as you can see it's in the 1-4 points range.

I'm not sure if this is the way it's supposed to be - makes more sense if you get exactly the values you've chosen.

08-13-2016 05:31 PM
Junior Member
If I recall, there was some talk about that occurring back when r65 came out, and people were a little annoyed by it. It has to do with the random story that is made for your character after character creation.

08-13-2016 10:07 PM
Ancient Member
Duplicate of 4255. TB has indicated this is an intended feature, though he's still open to tweaks to the system.

08-14-2016 08:53 AM
Junior Member
Thanks for the clarification JellySlayer. I'm confused about the points-buy system that people were referencing in that previous bug report - how were they able to do that? Was it a special feature in R65 or an add-on?

The randomization elements doesn’t make sense when sometimes you have to play around a little with the points system (e.g. to try and use as many points as possible or max a certain stat at teh expense of another) to then have it randomized anyway. Why not just have it randomized completely as before - the points base system doesn't add any value to the character creation process if it's not reflective of the actual starting character in my opinion.

08-15-2016 08:08 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Halon
Was it a special feature in R65 or an add-on?

The randomization elements doesn’t make sense
Points based system was released in r65-r66 as non-steam beta. (last stable steam was r64ish) It was very disappointing.

The main issue, iirc, that only racial part was editable via points (aned some races were locked in certain values like grey elves in toughnes). Other modifiers like class, backstory, random were applied afterwards. We asked at least to allow see final attributes.

p.s. just checked r67... function same as r65. Gray elf barbarian is locked at 7 toughnes while final was 16 twice as much as shown. Well, I guess I can just ignore that feature.

08-15-2016 09:46 AM
Junior Member
I, on the other hand, like the system the way it is. It's a bit of like you can control what to focus on in your training while growing up. Then, there are other unavoidable factors affecting the stats as well. So you can't tell what you actually would get, but can at least put some emphasis on some stats that you want to focus on. E.g. I like to put emphasis on learning to ensure that I get literacy. But the trick is that I don't know whether it's necessary or not.

It would be really boring to see the final stats when adjusting.

08-15-2016 11:28 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
It's a bit of like you can control what to focus on in your training while growing up.
Yes, as an elf with 30+ Learning potential I can only focus my Learning training by 1-2 points max. Must have gotten "very lazy" childhood history. And the history variance is probably 3 times as big as much as this.

Question-based system allows you to get more precise results than direct point allocation. This is just wrong.

08-15-2016 12:09 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Harkila
I, on the other hand, like the system the way it is. It's a bit of like you can control what to focus on in your training while growing up. Then, there are other unavoidable factors affecting the stats as well. So you can't tell what you actually would get, but can at least put some emphasis on some stats that you want to focus on. E.g. I like to put emphasis on learning to ensure that I get literacy. But the trick is that I don't know whether it's necessary or not.

It would be really boring to see the final stats when adjusting.
Yeah, if my grey elf chooses to be wizard or barbarian they have exactly the same chance to train toughness... which is zero variance.

Very interesting and meaningful.

08-15-2016 06:31 PM
Junior Member
TB mentioned he was trying to avoid min-maxing, which I can respect, but I think he should consider giving us the ability to put more points in and choose our backgrounds.

If he wanted to make it so that our scores wouldn't be counted or something to that extent, that would be fine, but I honestly feel that is what a lot of people wanted when they hear "point-allocation".

I still love the idea of point based system and am happy to not have to deal with question answering, but I think giving more power of choice to the player on what to do would be better rather than force them to deal with the randomness (which as we have seen a lot of people do not like).

08-15-2016 11:12 PM
Senior Member
As far as I know TB made the points system as an alternative to the question system for the people who still wanted to manually affect their stats without all the stuff the question system goes through. I think if he just gets rid of the numbers people would care less about the "inconsistency" between the numbers you see and the numbers you end up with at the end. Or just put a text box saying that those stats are not your final stats.

08-16-2016 04:54 AM
Ancient Member
well, if the screen shows to of 7 and final is 16... that is just sh.... system not randomness or display issue. Honestly it looks like strap on thing done to fulfill deluxe promises, but that is just my pissed off opinion.

08-17-2016 08:50 AM
The Creator
No, sorry, it's not just a strap-on. Too much work went into the whole revised character generation process.

So let's try to find better ideas: One idea might be to completely remove the background data from point-based character generation and instead hand out a bigger lump of points. I personally dislike the loss of background but see the benefits for people wanting to play with point-based character generation. So Id# be willing to accept that my tastes probably only work for a small minority ;-)

Another idea might be to show the background story first and also show the modifiers created by the background story. This has the problem that we need even more screen real estate for modifiers (difficult) and that it wouldn't enhance the flexibility of point-based fiddling.

Thus currently I tend towards dunking the background story for point-based characters and just give more points. What do you think?

08-17-2016 10:24 AM
Member
I'd hate to lose the background story since that little bit of unpredictability has set ADOM apart from most other RPGs, but I'm probably not qualified to comment since I usually just let fate decide my stats.

I would be fine with just a warning that 'fate will still affect your stats' at the points allocation screen, to notify the player that what's shown is not the final result.

08-17-2016 10:27 AM
Junior Member
I would prefer to have the randomness happen before I assign my points so I know exactly what I'm getting (15 le, 20 to, etc.)

edit: I like the idea of more points but what about more extreme limits by a point or few? Maybe I want my weaponsmith to be a smart weaponsmith or something.

08-17-2016 02:22 PM
Senior Member
I like the idea of replacing the background with a bigger pool of points and more flexibility in assigning them, say increasing the margin of adjustment by two on all stats. The hidden fact that your background can completely overwhelm your allocation is unintuitive and frustrating.
You can still generate the background text, with the possibility of a "special" like long-lost-brother, but it just wouldn't affect the stats.

08-17-2016 02:47 PM
Junior Member
I would like a more points to distribute. Points should be expensive if they are not in align with class or race but it should be possible to tweak.
I like the background based points but i would prefer they had a little less impact and were distributed before I assign points as RKade8583 mention.
When I make a new character I role lots of time to get a not perfect but reasonable char. I find it annoying and I think it wouldn't be necessary with a little more pointbased approach.
So a hard tweak to the newly implemented system would be my idea.

08-17-2016 03:45 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by DracoBandagora
I would like a more points to distribute. Points should be expensive if they are not in align with class or race but it should be possible to tweak.
I like the background based points but i would prefer they had a little less impact and were distributed before I assign points as RKade8583 mention.
When I make a new character I role lots of time to get a not perfect but reasonable char. I find it annoying and I think it wouldn't be necessary with a little more pointbased approach.
So a hard tweak to the newly implemented system would be my idea.
I like the idea of increasing costs with a higher value. Have no top value for amount that can be distributed, but the higher the amount the more it costs (+1 extra cost per 5 points above 10 corrected by race/class)

So, an elf would pay base cost for dx up to 20, whereas a human would pay base cost for dx up to 15.

A troll would pay base cost for str up to 20, whereas a hurthling would pay base cost up to 5

08-17-2016 04:14 PM
Ancient Member
I love the background story and want to have it. However, I'm not going to use point-based generation so I'm OK with removing it from that mode. It probably makes sense.

08-17-2016 04:28 PM
Ancient Member
I'm not sure how I feel about including background or not.

But I do feel that whatever the point buy system is, it should be the final points you spend. So if I start with 10 toughness (Race/class) and my background adds 3, then the Point-buy system should show my "base" toughness at 13. And I can spend points from there.

And I think it should treat that as "base" toughness. That is, it should be exactly as expensive to change my toughness (in this case) from 13->15 as it would be to change my toughness from 10->12 if I had no background.

I don't need to see any special background modifiers - that's just the base score I'm presented with.

08-17-2016 04:39 PM
Junior Member
Hi TB, I hope I didn't sound too mean when I gave my feedback :p

You know, I honestly think maybe it would be best to have a bigger pool of points and allowance to put more points into stats. That way, everyone who didn't like the randomness is happier, and those who liked the story can use the old questions or randomness system. Plus, it probably be less work for you so you don't have to make new screens.

You can still do the history for a character, but make it so it has no effect.

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