Monster generation
issueid=1059 05-19-2012 11:21 AM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by Qui: 98
Monster generation

I think there are some problems with monster generation. The monsters generated when the dungeon is created are not dependent of PC level, but those newly spawned while you are there are. I entered a new dungeon as lvl10 and killed goblins, rats and such. A few turns later I was being chased by troll brutes and hill orc chieftains.

Also, I'd say the rate new creatures spawn is a bit high, but that's a matter of opinion perhaps.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, newly spawned creatures sometimes spawn right next to you, I don't think they should do that.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1059
Project ADOM II (formerly known as JADE)
Category Unknown
Status Fixed
Priority 2
Affected Version ADOM II 0.2.7
Fixed Version (none)
Users able to reproduce bug 3
Users unable to reproduce bug 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)

05-19-2012 05:48 PM
Ancient Member
Yes, definitely there is still level scaling going on in some way. I'm level 20 and level 1 of dungeons seems to be filled with bats, goblins, etc., but once I get to level 2 of dungeons, it's stone giants and eleven-headed hydras everywhere (it was troll brutes when I was level 12 or so).

05-19-2012 06:33 PM
The Creator
Hrmpf. That's definitely strange. I'll have to check random monster generation... maybe those are a problem...

05-19-2012 06:35 PM
The Creator

05-19-2012 07:01 PM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
That's strange, cause I definitely noticed a pattern. At clvl7 ogres started spawing, troll brutes around 10 or 12, and all sorts of giants were next.

05-19-2012 11:25 PM
Junior Member
Yeah, I got ogre lords and hill giants on CoC level 1 as a 12th level mountain dwarf fighter.

05-20-2012 08:57 AM
The Creator
@Khym: Question: Did that happen when you entered the CoC for the first time? If so that's still kind of intentional. The base danger level of a dungeon complex is defined when you first enter it. This is an intentional feature as otherwise you might across Ancardia stumbling upon its 200+ dungeons and most of them would be much too boring. So the game checks your experience level upon entering a dungeon complex for the first time and sets a certain base line to make the dungeon interesting. This base line then remains fixed for the rest of the game.

Example: If you enter the CoC around experience level the base danger level will roughly be 3, so Coc1 has danger level 3, CoC2 has danger level 4, etc. (actually that's not true - the danger level right now increases by 1 for every two dungeon levels, thus CoC1+CoC2=danger level 3, CoC3+CoC4=danger level 4, etc.). If you'd entered the CoC for the first time at level 12, the base danger level is 12. And then CoC1+CoC2=danger level 12, CoC3+CoC4=danger level 13, etc.

I thought that would be a good idea but in hindsight this maybe needs to be changed in some way :-^

05-20-2012 09:10 AM
Ancient Member
I agree that would benefit from a change. It's true that all the dungeons starting at level 1 would be boring, but starting at the character level makes them very predictable and it still has the problem that it may be better not to level. I think danger levels should be particular to each dungeon and you could hint the player via things like descriptions ("a rather dull cave entry" vs. "a really dangerous-looking cave entry", etc.), location, NPC clues, etc. etc.

But anyway I think there are more forces at work here... Yesterday I entered a shard dungeon where the first level was filled with goblins, bats, etc. but the second and deeper levels greeted me with hordes of giants. That difference between the first level and the others doesn't seem to match your description of what is intended (and I hadn't entered that dungeon before).

05-20-2012 09:25 AM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
I think danger levels should be particular to each dungeon and you could hint the player via things like descriptions ("a rather dull cave entry" vs. "a really dangerous-looking cave entry", etc.), location, NPC clues, etc. etc.
That exactly. Now the "optimal" play would be to enter and immediately exit as many dungeons as possible at low level ;) to make them easier and gather more loot before trolls and giants start to pop up.

05-20-2012 09:47 AM
Ancient Member
The danger level issue is something I intended to solve in this RFE:

Basically danger is directly proportional to how far away from civilisation it is. There's also been several comments with ideas how to take it further and make a better, realistic world.

05-20-2012 10:35 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Laukku
The danger level issue is something I intended to solve in this RFE:
Further ideas are also in the itemized list of the first post of this RFE:

05-20-2012 10:47 AM
The Creator
@Laukku: I really like those ideas. I'm currently torn between first adding base features to the game (as outlined in the roadmap: missile combat, wizardry, religion, etc.) and then working on the world and vice versa. I have a ton of ideas on how to make the world much more interesting - the current state really just is about 1% of what is to come (no technical problems there, just a matter of time).

So I'm totally with you but I fear that right now there are more important problems to tackle ;-) Or am I wrong. Feedback very welcome!

05-20-2012 01:29 PM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
I agree that working on the world isn't a priority right now, but perhaps some issues can be tackled earlier so that the game is more... playable.

What I feel is the issue is that you can't really play the game "straight". Like, pick any character and just play. The beginning is fine, but you're on the clock to get some things I feel are a must. Right now I'm in the third shard dungeon with 12 level troll. With earth shard, invisibility and monk's disarm I manage to take care of giants. (by the way, they don't attack me when I disarm them while invisible) If I played something other than troll, or didn't have invisibility, or didn't have disarm, I'd probably be already dead.

The thing is, as soon as you hit around level 10, the levels are quickly becoming death traps with troll brutes, ogre lords and giants everywhere. If you haven't found good enough gear to deal with them, you won't survive. And if you go somewhere else, well... it scales with your level, so you're still dead. Nowhere to go, nowhere to train, unless you just grind world map encounters I suppose.

So, my troll monk/barbarian/fighter/commoner is fine (sort of ;)). A halfling tinker, on the other hand...

Another problem is that new creatures sometimes spawn right next to you. Maybe it needs a separate bug report...

05-20-2012 01:30 PM
The Creator
For now I have made some adjustments and noted down to get back to your great situations as soon as I start enhancing the whole game world.

Fixed for ADOM II 0.2.8. Please send your real name to creator(at) for it to be included in the credits. (If you were already asked to do so you can ignore this message. Please include a reference to the bug or RFE you are credited for.)

05-20-2012 05:16 PM
Junior Member
I just finished my first game in 0.2.8. After the starting dungeon I went through a ~10 floor dungeon with a Troll Monk, getting to level 25 without leaving the dungeon. Getting tons of exp, most enemies were trolls, ogres and hydras. Pretty easy going, but didn't get any equipment better than the starting stuff.
After leaving that dungeon I went to another random dungeon and most enemies were Fire Giants, which were completely unkillable, even with 1d33+20 dmg (IIRC). After luring 5-6 of them to the wilderness two more spawned and completely thrashed my character in a couple of turns.

Considering that all dungeons at that point will have the same enemies (danger level 25), unless I'd already visited them, I think the character was completely stuck; unable to explore any new areas, for fear of getting instantly killed.

05-21-2012 07:55 AM
Ancient Member
Huh... this does sound pretty bad, newly entered dungeons generating at your current level. I wont play the 0.2.8 then... Well here's some starting point suggestion from me...

First, I feel that dungeons getting generated at the same level would be virtually impossible to tackle. How about random from 1 to half the current character level? f a character is level 24, the first level could be 1-12. Strong monsters wont be in short supply, they're just a few levels lower anyway. Perhaps the DL could increase once per dungeon level then, instead of every two.

Secondly, I would suggest some little debug counter like DL: 12 which shows the current danger level openly to all players. In particular, I feel that certain data should be easily reachable instead of hidden, because players are actively doing whatever they can to report to this very bug board. It could be a potentially good idea to allow players, even temporarily (in alpha stages) to observe a number of these variables in plain sight.

Thoughts on each?

This petition for a change to Confirmed is currently pending
05-21-2012 07:59 AM
Ancient Member
Oops. Forgot to petition for Confirmed. Editing the earlier message did not allow me to change that.

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