Nerf spear-and-shield (or one-handed polearms in general)
I hate the fact that I go spear-shield in so many games, but I continue to do it because it's so often optimal. Whilst dual-shields have been nerfed, spear-and-shield is still miles better than every other weapon combination, and the obvious choice for all caster and missile types - often in favour of artifact weapons. And how does a spear held in one hand give NEARLY as much DV as a spear held in two anyway!? You can't parry with a spear held in one hand - it makes no sense!
I'd like to propose reducing polearm DV bonus to 1/3 when both hands are occupied (it would still give more DV than everything bar whips).
(I initially thought you might do something else like splitting one and two handed polearms (new weapon skill, or merge 1-h spears into sword for 'Swords and Spears' skill, but I think that's probably more work, and also adds confusion with the long spear and so on.)
Voted yes though I don't like the suggested implementation, as I think special cases are bad. Just reduce polearm DV a bit, especially at high levels. Or maybe make polearm DV the same as regular weapons, but give halberds and long spears higher DV built into the weapon itself.
The whole polearm obsession is a ridiculous joke. Players see the Grand Mastery DV and think "that's optimal" without bothing to assess their situation in game. Most of the time you're gaining 2-4 DV, and majorly sacrificing on damage output from better weapons, as most one-handed polearms aren't that great. This is more a problem with player perception and bad advice than with the game itself.
DV isn't just parrying -- it's evasion and avoidance as well, everything involved in the totality of "not getting hit". And having a longer weapon, deterring your opponents and preventing them from getting near enough to strike as easily (plus having a shield in your other hand in case they do get around your weapon and close the gap) -- yeah, it makes sense. Not all weapon combos are equal, nor should they be.
Plus, "optimal" depends on what you're going for. If you're a troll barbarian, "optimal" is taking down molochs with one tremendous blow from your wicked eternium two-handed sword of devastation.
What I don't get is everyone's propensity to want to "nerf" every good weapon, combination of weapons, and ability in the game. If something's good, someone wants it gone. Why? For "balance".
We want to remove "obvious choices". If one thing gets used all of the time it effectively cuts out a lot of game content. Of course the other way to fix this is to bump everything else, but that takes a bit more effort. I'd personally quite like to see sword get much more to hit and axes more damage from weapon mastery to give them a different feel.
I don't think anything needs to be changed. Just training shields gives you good DV as it is. If you hate the fact that you go spear-shield in so many games, stop doing it. You'l find that you are still able to do well in the game. The only difference is you'll enjoy the variety.
If you hate the fact that you go spear-shield in so many games, stop doing it.
Seconded. Personally, I've used spear-shield after early game exactly one time, because I wanted to see if this "Leonidas combo" is really that good. It isn't - there is no good artifact spear (and please, do not talk to me about this Soaker/scorched crap), and ordinary spears mostly have lousy damage compared to other weapons (except, of course, wunderwaffen like wicked eternium spear of penetration, but let's keep it realistic)
We want to remove "obvious choices". If one thing gets used all of the time it effectively cuts out a lot of game content. Of course the other way to fix this is to bump everything else, but that takes a bit more effort. I'd personally quite like to see sword get much more to hit and axes more damage from weapon mastery to give them a different feel.
I'd be fine with the tweaks you mention (to swords and axes) as well. My point is simply, just because a particular combination is good in some particular (DV in this case) and just because some players use it frequently as a result, is not in and of itself a reason to eliminate the usefulness of that combination. Quite the contrary, if anything; that's a combination that players obviously like. Get rid of everything in a game that people like, and the popularity (and quality) of the game is going to suffer, not improve.
Despite that, spear/shield is hardly the end-all of ADOM weapon combinations. I've been playing for something like fifteen years and I've never used that combo that I can recall. Reason? Personal preference. I like swords.
I find enjoyment in looking for and exploiting optimal strategies. Spear and shield IS optimal for any class that wants to maximize DV, which is one of the very best things you can do at all stages of the game. And it's not just 'a bit better' - the DV is about 4x better at all levels, and polearms have decent +hit and +damage AS WELL. I don't always do it - sometimes I find executor, or kinslayer, or a penetrating mithril battle-axe - but as it stands I *need* to come across a good reason not to do it in most games I play.
We've removed a ton of other no-brainer strategies like bansheeing the forest and herb training WI + TO to 25 every game - so I don't see that "if you don't like it don't do it" is a good argument. Lots of players didn't like bansheeing the forest either but it still got nerfed.
"Try doing something different" was more of a suggestion than an argument for or against the position.
The reason I'm against the change is that I don't particularly consider choosing to specialize in a particular weapon scummy or cheesy nor do I think different weapon proficiencies giving different bonuses is a problem. I never had a strong position for or against removing mechanics such as banshee forest farming that I didn't personally use. My view of this RFE is a bit different for the reason I stated.
I find enjoyment in looking for and exploiting optimal strategies. Spear and shield IS optimal for any class that wants to maximize DV, which is one of the very best things you can do at all stages of the game. And it's not just 'a bit better' - the DV is about 4x better at all levels, and polearms have decent +hit and +damage AS WELL. I don't always do it - sometimes I find executor, or kinslayer, or a penetrating mithril battle-axe - but as it stands I *need* to come across a good reason not to do it in most games I play.
Yes, and whips is optimal for any class that wants to maximize to-hit (2x that of unarmed fighting). Two-handed weapons is optimal for any class that wants to maximize damage bonus (2.5x that of polearms and 3x that of staves). Staves is optimal for any class that wants to maximize DV without a shield (10x that of axes!!!). Should all those be nerfed as well?
The DV bonus of polearm/shield, with both skills maxed out, is not tremendously better than a maxed staff alone maxed out (+52 DV instead of +40). This is far from the "4x better" you cited. It also requires that the shield itself be at least +15 DV (since a given shield will only grant up to 2x its base DV bonus regardless of skill level). The simple fact that that particular combination is the best at that ONE aspect is not a reason to remove it, or again, we'll be removing everything else that happens to be best at anything else, too. And there goes variety, and with it, enjoyability.
Two-handed and Staves do not compare as they are two-handed weapons; I only want to nerf one-handed polearm use. Spears give ~4x DV vs Daggers&Knives, Clubs&Hammers, Maces&Flails, Swords and Axes without giving up much in hit or damage. Barring the generation of unusually powerful weapons, Spear + Shield is the obvious choice for every Wizard, Archer, Mindcrafter, Necromancer, and Elementalist (maybe swapping in Sword of Nonnak situationally); and a damn strong choice for almost every other class. You can't say the same about any other weapon combination.
1-h spears are just overpowered compared to other weapon types - they have two-handed weapon stats on a one-handed weapon.
shockeroo is sort of right, but it's very rare that I use a (1h) spear to the end game, and I'm not sure why other people would either, unless they get an amazing ego weapon. Slaying powers & such will trump your standard spears any day of the week. (ps this also applies to staves and whips. especially staves, which are completely godawful, even a staff of smiting)
I think halving the DV bonus of 1h spears (whether or not you are wearing a shield) makes a lot of sense though.
Again, it depends on what you're going for. Not everyone is looking to maximize DV at the expense of everything else. If we're talking about 1-handed weapons alone... yes, spears have the best DV bonus, at +7 DV over any other 1-handed weapon (whips being second). Whips, on the other hand, have the best to-hit (+4 over any other weapon), the best to-damage (+3 over any other 1-h weapon and +7 over spears), AND the second best DV, making their overall performance superior when taking everything into account and not just DV.
So no, spear/shield isn't overpowered compared to everything else. While spear/shield is optimal for DV by itself, whip/shield is optimal not only for to-hit alone, but also optimal for the greatest overall combo of hit/damage/DV, and (again) two-handed weapons optimal for to-damage alone.
And bear in mind, there are other strategies that can offer still other benefits not afforded by either 1-h weapon/shield OR 2-h weapon, such as using two weapons. If you choose to only use one strategy for all your characters... don't blame the game. Your options are open.
you're incorrect, Black Mantis (unfortunately). You're failing to take into account what kinds of weapons you can find. It's pretty easy to milk a properly ego'd spear from somewhere to get you through most of the game, but whips & staves are pretty rare as-is and good ones are incredibly rare. plus, all whips are relatively easily destroyed.
Plus, there's no way your analysis can be correct since that situation isn't born out in actual games.
you're incorrect, Black Mantis (unfortunately). You're failing to take into account what kinds of weapons you can find. It's pretty easy to milk a properly ego'd spear from somewhere to get you through most of the game, but whips & staves are pretty rare as-is and good ones are incredibly rare. plus, all whips are relatively easily destroyed.
Plus, there's no way your analysis can be correct since that situation isn't born out in actual games.
I'm not failing to take it into account, it's simply irrelevant to what I was talking about, which was specifically the bonuses from weapon skills. This (unless I'm mistaken here) is what the original post also was about, so it's what I focused on. I also wasn't trying to say that whips are best weapons or whips/shields the best weapon combo (far from it; I never use whips as they generally suck and are really rare) -- I was saying that the raw bonuses you can get from maxing out those weapon skills are the greatest. Look at the numbers yourself if you don't believe me.
It is very relevant to what you're saying, though. Whips have great bonuses in weapon skills & look awesome on paper, but they're terrible when used in-game. Same for staves (I've one the game on a staves-only DE Mindcrafter. Trust me, they are BAD). This is not the case at all for spears, they're generally pretty good (in fact, an eternium spear is basically as good as an eternium stave...2d8+6, or so, vs 2d10+10). There is always a trade-off between damage & to-hit & DV & etc. etc., and spears offer the best compromise, always. A good ego spear will easily outclass (in damage) any stave except an extremely-scroll-smithed-up staff of smiting (higher metal staves are quite rare, much less ego'd ones), so there's no reason to use them. Whips are clearly terrible as you note yourself--why would you ever use them? Despite what the numbers tell you, they clearly don't match up, but spears do match up well with the numbers, and you see that reflected by them being used preferentially in games.
It is very relevant to what you're saying, though. Whips have great bonuses in weapon skills & look awesome on paper, but they're terrible when used in-game. Same for staves (I've one the game on a staves-only DE Mindcrafter. Trust me, they are BAD). This is not the case at all for spears, they're generally pretty good (in fact, an eternium spear is basically as good as an eternium stave...2d8+6, or so, vs 2d10+10). There is always a trade-off between damage & to-hit & DV & etc. etc., and spears offer the best compromise, always. A good ego spear will easily outclass (in damage) any stave except an extremely-scroll-smithed-up staff of smiting (higher metal staves are quite rare, much less ego'd ones), so there's no reason to use them. Whips are clearly terrible as you note yourself--why would you ever use them? Despite what the numbers tell you, they clearly don't match up, but spears do match up well with the numbers, and you see that reflected by them being used preferentially in games.
As far as I can tell, the original post (and correct me if I'm wrong here, shockeroo) was requesting a nerfing of the DV bonuses not for spears themselves, but for the polearms weapon skill because it combos best with shields (+22 for maxed polearms, +30 for maxed shields, for a total of +52). Again, that is specifically what I was responding to -- weapon skill bonuses, nothing more. Modifiers, prefixes, and suffixes are a different topic.
As for spears themselves, like I said earlier, DV is all about not getting hit in all its aspects. Preventing your opponent from getting close enough to strike. Evading the strike if you fail to keep them at bay. Parrying the strike if you can't get out of the way. Spears (even one-handed spears) are longer than almost any other weapon and thus are excellent at facilitating that first order of business when it comes to defense; keeping the enemy too far away to hit you. For this reason I don't find the DV bonus unreasonable, especially when combined with a shield (which effectively covers the last resort of defense; physically stopping their blow if you're unable to keep it away from your body).
I think that spear+shield is too obvious as a choice, and data (players' behaviour) agrees with that. So yes, please nerf somehow.
I can add something from my point of view, if you like this kind of discussions:
Spears are a big subset of game content. it is available to anyone in any game at some (earlier) point. Shields as well. So the combination, as powerful as it seems, is an obvious choice and everyone has it (As opposed to Executer, which is an obvious choice, but not everyone has it). And that makes it worth nerfing I think.
The main problem is that the spear works best at length, since the point is the only killing part of the shaft, so if an enemy were to knock away the point then he can run in close to you and set about you with a shorter weapon such as a sword, although the spear can be shortened so that you hold it nearer the head, so combat at closer ranges is possible, however the remainder of the spear behind makes it more cumbersome to use thus than another weapon of the effective length.
Another problem is that if the enemy has a shield, 1 on 1 there is no real way of maneuvering the spear around it to strike somewhere vital, although in formations or even just 3 on 3, the spear never targets the man in front but the man to the sides, as the pawn in chess, so while an open dissarray of spearmen can be cut down by swordsmen, a tightpacked and well trained line of spearmen can pull apart a trained line of swordsmen.
In short, the spear is disadvantaged 1 on 1 in battle, and also at close quarters.
As far as I can tell, the original post (and correct me if I'm wrong here, shockeroo) was requesting a nerfing of the DV bonuses not for spears themselves, but for the polearms weapon skill because it combos best with shields (+22 for maxed polearms, +30 for maxed shields, for a total of +52). Again, that is specifically what I was responding to -- weapon skill bonuses, nothing more. Modifiers, prefixes, and suffixes are a different topic.
But...they aren't a different topic! That's what I'm trying to tell you: they are intrinsically tied together. If spears were as rare or as bad as the two most common whips (much less both!) [note: whips can also be used with shields], they'd never be used and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Only looking at the bonuses completely misses the point of why the spear-and-shield combination is actually viable and used so often [aside from it being pushed excessively on the forums], and leads you to say things like "staves and whips are just as good as spear+shield" (they aren't).
As for the OP, the request is for a reduction in DV when using 1h polearm + 1h shield. I don't see anything wrong with reducing DV by some amount for anyone wielding a 1h polearm, regardless of what else they are wielding, though.
Originally Posted by Grey
01-14-2013 09:47 PM
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