Perhaps shield skill DV bonus could be removed or reduced when wielding two shields so that players would only wield two shields for specialty purposes like walking through a crowd without attacking. Also making it impossible to train shields while wielding two shields. Also, perhaps shields should not only have a penalty to to-hit with melee weapons but also with missile weapons.
Reducing shield DV per class sounds like a too drastic a solution. Class differences should be handled by tiered difficulty in training shields in the way weapon skill advancement is handled (other comments suggest this is already the case).

Another suggestion: shields reduce movement speed. Either flat rate 15% or scaling with shield size (5% small, 10% medium, 15% large, 20% tower). Dual-shielding stacks. For a melee tank this is irrelevant - stand and fight! For an archer or wizard it's a more serious issue. 15% isn't a big change, and can be offset by the likes of 7LBs, but 30% is a tactical changer that should be used with caution. It would still make dual-shielding for places like the Forest level fine.

Overall we don't want anything that makes shields irrelevant in the game, but that adds some noticeable penalty that isn't too easily overcome. Movement speed matters, but isn't crippling, especially in smaller amounts. Also, one could have a Fighter class power be to ignore shield movement penalty, thus emphasising their role as a tankier class.

Or it could be a regular speed (vs. energy cost) penalty. Because with those energy increases, an early tower shield feels as much of a curse as it is useful due to the extra DV.

Spell failure chances are not something I'd like to see in ADOM.

Regular speed impact would be bad - no one would use them ever then.

I honestly feel that sounds like a solution according to the watering can principle; you're hitting shields with a general relatively minor overall nerf. That would be fine if shields are overall minorly unbalanced - but it's severely unbalanced in some places. Spellcasting while shielded is an unusually bigger problem because you can use Coward mode and dual-shield and retain your full arcane power. If anything, a wizard with full equipment can "stand and fight" easier than even a melee tank, because the melee tank can't really fight effectively in Coward mode, and in most boss fights right now melee. I feel the way to attack that particular issue isn't making shields weaker overall; it's to make spellcasting with shields more of an issue.

I like dual-shielding okay as a full-defense mode to be employed when you're not planning on attacking at all, for instance while running - in which case a movement speed penalty would ruin your day. That point isn't even restricted to dual-shielding; with the restrictions you're proposing running in general will become a significant issue.

Imagine the following scenario. The place is a regular old dungeon level with open areas. Your speed is 102; maybe you've picked Quick or you have Athletics. That means you can barely outrun the average creature as long as your speed stays unimpeded. Right now, you can make sure it stays unimpeded by not getting yourself burdened or satiated. With your restrictions, though, I have a choice of either keeping my shield equipped while trying to run, which will probably get me cornered and killed slowly, or getting rid of my shield or shields, which will probably get me killed by stray arrows or a melee attack by a creature I'm trying to run past (and cost an additional turn to unequip the shield you've been using to fight all this time).

Moreover, we haven't let weight affect movement speed apart from Burdened+ status yet - so imposing a movement speed penalty on shields would be inconsistent; why not then a movement speed penalty on especially heavy boots, armor or weapons? Is that a good can of beans to open? Also, with shields being strapped to your arm, they wouldn't impede the movement of your legs at all. They would, however, impede the movement of your arms and hands, which is why tower shields and some random smaller shields get to-hit penalties. Missile combat and spellcasting also seem like they would be much more complicated with big hunks of metal strapped to your arms, right over your hands. (Small shields a possible exception.) Yet they don't receive any penalties whatsoever.

Not even if they'd only affect characters wearing two shields?

I'd say we'd probably get close to a decent situation if Coward mode affected spellcasting negatively somehow and casting while dual-shielded was basically impossible. At that point, shields would be "a bit too good" for all classes equally, and we can get out the watering can if it is deemed necessary. Getting rid of shield PV seems to make more sense to me, though.

Silfir, I love how you argue in a single post that my suggestion is both too weak and too punishing at the same time :P

Er, yes. That's because it is - precisely because it's a watering can solution. Problematic cases are hit too little and unproblematic cases too much. It's not rocket science. I mean, I thought I explained it ok right up there. I guess I'm just a terrible writer.

What about you? Do you think dual-shielded spellcasting ain't no thing?

Ah, didn't understand the analogy properly.

I agree it's not perfect. But the idea is to balance the pros with real and universal cons. And altering movement speed does introduce tactically tricky scenarios like the one you mention. Unequip the shields to make a quicker getaway, or keep them on for better protection? I love those tense decisions! For a spellcaster wearing two shields becomes a serious issue if things start going wrong. Perhaps they'll think of wielding a staff instead...

Staffs are one thing to consider - what if staffs gave a PP pool bonus? Then casters would be lured away by the sweet sweet power. Choose more power or more defence? Ah, blessed choices... Wouldn't solve archers, of course, but we could make shields have a bigger penalty on missile accuracy.

And as you may notice I do like throwing around ideas. Maybe eventually something good will come out ;)

Dual-shield casters aren't such a worry for me mind. Casters are fairly overpowered anyway, and for shields have a learning penalty anyway. A bigger thing for me is how one-hander + shield is the no-brainer choice for melee. Two-handed weapons just don't get used much, because they're so much riskier. And this is partly because shields give such huge DV. If the DV bonus from shield skill level were halved this might be different.

So to summarise my final (for now) thoughts:
- Half the DV bonus from shield weapon skill
- Reduce the PV from shields
- Have a higher missile accuracy penalty on all shields
- Make staff-wielding give +10% PP (maybe higher for staff of the magi and the like)

Increase Attack Energy costs calculated from class, strenght, dexterity, skill in shields, talent in shields, weight of shield(s). Archery as well, because the PC is un-equiping melee weapon(s) and shield(s) and equiping missile weapon and this takes 'time'.
Un-equiping weapons(even no-weapons) only, is already factored into the current system. A shield(s) are bulkier so more 'time' is needed.

Increase the Energy cost for casting hand gesture spells while wielding shield(s). More so for duel-wielding shields. Reduces somewhat by strenght.

Remove PV from non-artifact shields.

Decrease DV with DV gained from shield(s) while:
equiping, reading, eating, dipping, alchemy, bridge buiding, climbing, cooking, detect traps, disarming traps, lock picking, first aid, gardening, rubbing, squeezing, healing others, picking up, dropping, mining, swimming, smithing, shooting, throwing, playing, pickpocketing, mindcrafting(excluding mental shield), necromancy, dead scrificing, casting spells that require hand gestures( bolt, ball, burning hands, healing, curing, anti-poison, bless, destroy undead, etc. I think it's the majority). List is not complete.

But not from:
walking, drinking, spitting, praying, live sacrificing, ventriloquisting, melee attacking, standing, kicking, switching position, giving commands, chatting, haggling, open/close door, pull/push lever, casting spells that don't require hand gestures( Strenght of Atlas, Wish, Darkness, Light, etc. ) List is incomplete.

Edit - Ok, so I had some time to think at work. Some of my suggestions is directly trying to discourage magic-users to not use shields( maybe magic-users should get bonusses from wielding a stave ), and they make more realistic sense. ( I'm not suggesting ADOM must be realistic, just fantasy realistic. )

As for Wizards and so using shields, maybe the solution could be this: add magical-relevant bonuses to staves. A magical staff is a staple of fantasy and if it stays two-handed, it will provide an incentive to dispense with a shield, or at least not use it full-time.

Here's a thought - how about simply making it so that double-wielding shields is harder, much like double-wielding weapons often is? It could perhaps come with a DV penalty, for instance.

Beyond that, it would be nice if magic-users got some sort of benefit from using weapons in general, as further encouragement to not just use shields. Staves would be a natural option, but I don't see why it should be restricted to it.

So how about having some spellcasting benefit to increasing weapon skills? Perhaps high weapon skill could lower the PP cost of spells cast while wielding a weapon of that sort. It could perhaps also (or instead) increase the power of offensive spells. That way, it's not so much that merely having a weapon is beneficial to the caster, but using it is beneficial beyond being a backup attacking method.

The effect could perhaps even be amplified by the Strong Magic talent, thereby improving its value further.

And if the effect were strongest for staves, it would make sense. Perhaps at grand mastery in staves, a caster could see as much as a 50% increase in offensive spellcasting power if they have the Strong Magic talent and currently wield a staff.

If this were implemented, while spell power were reduced somewhat, it would help to balance the game for wizards, in my opinion, as greater reliance on magic rather than training up weapon skills would be detrimental to the PC.

I think the main reason why two-handed weapons see so little use compared to shield + onehander is mainly that the typical damage output differs so little.

For example, compare a regular two-handed sword to a regular iron sword. The base damage of the two hander is better, but that difference is watered down because the strength bonus is the same for both. Add in further bonuses like weapon skill, and the real difference in damage is quite small.

I think it would be fair to increase the strength bonus to damage when using a two handed weapon. After all, you can swing with both arms in full force, rather than with the strength of one arm.

Excellent point.

Yes, I agree. Make an RFE with that and I'll vote it.

I applied the following changes:
- You no longer can cast spells while wielding two shields.
- Your chances to hit with ranged weapons will be greatly reduced while wielding two shields.
- Fighting with two-handed weapons (only of that specific category, not polearms or staves) yields an extra 0,5 ST damage bonus (limited by weapon skill, see the manual entry for more details).

Cool solution - I look forward to seeing its impact in the game :)

Second shield is replaced by spear.

Don't know how much of improvement that is.

I'm not sure about that as it also complicates walking through the animated forest :-/ I always wear two shields there to prevent accidentally hitting any trees, and if I want to cast a spell (not necessarily an attacking one) I can't do it.

I guess I'll just have to live with it. And of course I can always unequip one shield, but that takes a turn.