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Originally Posted by
Harwin
That's why I suggested "lizardfolk". I'm not sure that "lizardwoman" sounds right - it sounds to me more like a job descriptor. "The lizardfolk raised his hand"? Now I'm less sure...
Interesting problem, isn't it? "Lizardwoman" sounds wrong to me as a native speaker, it's clunky and a little too long, ditto "lizardperson". I suggested "lizardkin" in addition because I thought it might work better for that reason - it means of a family with lizards, but can be used plurally or singly, whereas "lizardfolk" is more pluralistic. "Lizardling" might also be an idea. It's close (perhaps too close) to drakeling, but the common theme is interesting and already established. Or they could even just be converted to drakelings in general (presumably that wasn't the original intention though).
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Originally Posted by
Arthandas
Alternatively, "swordsman" could be simply changed to "mercenary".
Works perfectly well, I like it. However I personally prefer "swordfighter" and for the master swordsman, "swordsmaster", because it's nearer to the original intention of the text ("mercenary" holds other implications like a money-led philosophy). "Blademaster" might work too?
"Mastering the blade is my life!"
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Originally Posted by
_L_n_
Good grief, all this RFE is about is getting rid of "female" prefix in message log while keeping "hit her/hit him" as it is. When was the last time you paid any attention to it while fighting swarms of monsters since it has zero effect on gameplay?
I know the feeling a little..! The discussion is pretty long because people keep adding even more amazing ideas - some that fit this RFE and some that would be better in another - and fixing small issues with the original, as well as the standard commenting why they agree/disagree if they do. I've started trying to multi-reply to shorten it. Grey's already said it, but I should probably have tried a forum thread first. Was more confident with this process, however, given the inherent strong views this would engender.
Actually the RFE has to be slightly more complex than that, as I meant it as a suggestion to: remove the prefix, increase the frequency of 'her' in "hit her/hit him" to maintain or improve gender balance since it'll be less visible with the prefix removed, change monster memories and add some where they're not presently available in both genders so that they also vary randomly (for added interest, again), and sort out a few other related issues that mesh.
In addition to previous responses I would like to add that removing the prefix
also streamlines the game because less text would be generated per action than at present. Significantly less if the PC is paralysed!
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Originally Posted by
BenMathiesen
Kelibath, don't let the naysayers and pedants get you down.
I too have noticed the "female goblin" disparity and found it odd, ever since my first day playing ADOM. Obviously this didn't prevent you or me from enjoying the game. But it is still something worth changing.
I would love to see alternate female tiles for some humanoid monsters. (I think kobolds and lizardfolk can skip them). I think the cleanest solution is just to drop the "female" prefix from the monster description, but retain gender in the monster code.
First off, thank you very much for your support! Secondly, and hopefully, it's okay. I'm generally fine with debate and even conflicting opinions as long as neither of these end up irrepressibly taking over the thread or becoming toxic in any manner. At that point I think it's unhelpful to me, to the RFE and unhelpful for the other people watching this thread. For now, I'm glad we're still having a reasonably calm and involved discussion - it's just a shame if it gets to be too long for Thomas to bother with, as there are a lot of good ideas in here.
Given ADOM's limited present resources I completely understand that there'll be only certain things which are easily editable. I'd love to see alternate tiles for all possible races, but a good many examples of the existing art would work for all genders, or at least not be immediately problematic. For others, while a completely different tile art, appearance and costume would be more interesting, the fastest and easiest fix for the art team will be changing attributes like shoulder-waist-hip balance, adding extra 'width' on the chest, removing beards... The naming conventions on the other hand should have the potential to be changed globally if any changes are possible at all.
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Originally Posted by
News_Of_The_World
I agree with this proposal. I'm new to the game from Steam, remember thinking it was pretty cool to see that there were female versions of lots of the monsters, but then found it jarring when I noticed that the male version were unmarked. I think using pronouns is the best way to deal with this. The game's lore doesn't have to change: if a race is supposed to be explicitly patriarchal/matriarchal, that's fine, giving str/dex boosts to men/women is fine too. But the way the game presents it should try to remain neutral. ... For the naysayers, I guess the closest analogy I can think of is "would it be weird if a game did this with race?", which is usually a pretty good test for sexism. If the game's characters were divided into "human" and "black human", we'd definitely think there was something off about that. However, it's still okay for a game to present race relations if it's a necessary part of the game world.
I am so very glad to hear from you. Until now, I've been considering players who are already and vocally in the same position as myself (or in sympathy with that position), and considering the possible response of new players in the same light. People like you are the reason I consider this RFE more than a small issue, meaningful to other people than myself, and worth the effort not just of posting (and answering hundreds of replies) but of implementation. While I regret that you've had the same jarring experience I did when I started playing ADOM ... it is
indescribably useful to have my initial concerns justified by you speaking up about it.
Thank you. I hope that your comment is taken into account. I also wish I had your talent for brevity!
On the matter of race (great counter-example) I would also personally prefer to see some darker skintones in the ADOM universe, especially for PC races like Dark Elves and Gnomes that frequently generate with a brown/dark/black complexion.
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Originally Posted by
shockeroo
Okay, I can see this issue is important to some people even if I don't believe it is so myself. I might be willing to support a different proposal (or a couple of sub-proposals - this is really broad for one request as it stands. I think you'd do well to break it down into multiple separate RFEs.). Generally individual changes that are small in scope and easy to implement are more likely to win my approval. However, some points for consideration: points points points
I really appreciate your furthered consideration on this issue. I've answered you mostly in private (and in the seperate paragraphs below) because I saw your PM first, especially on the matter of splitting the RFE - I hope the global response below this one helps to clarify my position - but thanks for giving it thought! So, in answer to a few of the points I didn't already cover:
To my mind, you've already explained why I don't see a need for a gender imbalance in the game. ADOM's male and female PCs are (VERY marginally) more suited to certain roles in the life of an active adventurer. According to the stat bonus, men make better melee fighters and women better archers and thieves. At the same time however the difference is absolutely miniscule and is immediately overshadowed by class, race, starsign and charactergen question choices. I think that this is intentional and reflects the fact that while there is some variation between the genders it is neither universal nor prohibitive in any way.
Regarding your unaddressed but similar points (at the risk of getting into another political conversation, please let's not!); ADOM's gameworld beyond that of the Drakalor Chain is a relative mystery and may or may not incorporate the concepts you suggest as universal, especially the idea that women would be less likely to fight. Childbearing is a reasonable example but generally takes up only a few years at most within the decades-long life of most people (and that's if they have multiple children/attempts), and in addition for 1/2 that time the woman in question may not be disadvantaged by or even aware of the pregnancy. In some warrior cultures a pregnant woman was even considered more dangerous and likely to fight more brutally to preserve herself. If we
are using the real world as an example, though, then your own examples are only accurate for a certain geographic area, while others have maintained an even split and occasionally encouraged women over men. That said I don't think ADOM needs to be or should be reflective of real-world human history to that level and can see no reason to limit the proportion of female NPCs based on outdated societies. While it is true that the very strongest men within the real world tend to be stronger than the very strongest women, skewing the mean variation ahead, both men and women can reach a powerful physical peak and become effective fighters with training and practice. It isn't necessary to skew the number of either gender who decide to take that course in life based on their potential maximums. After all, no character starts out with those already fulfilled. They also vary wildly for both genders. In other words I can't see any reason to limit monster gender frequency based on real-world bell curves, and even if this was important, society and personality have a much stronger effect on who does or doesn't choose to fight.
On the basis of all this I'd argue that while technically the proportion might not work out at 50%, it should -approach- 50%. Whether that proportion should be 40%, 45%, 55% or any other figure is really ultimately down to Thomas and his dev team, and the impression they want people to take away from this game. What I do want to highlight with my own personal suggestion of around 50% is actually that, at present, the proportion is far lower, and
should be raised to ensure that gender variation is still visible when prefixes are removed (hence why it's in this RFE rather than one purely based on gender balance).
There's also no solid reason for any fantasy race to mimic humanity in how the male and female variants differ, if at all. I would expect different races to feature different types of variation.
I think monster memory entries are already dynamic based on race and current gender prefix, but there would be a need for edits to those about single-gender monsters (or the writing of new ones for the other gender). When remembering a gendered race, the player would be presented with one or another applicable memory for female or male creatures of that race, at random. I included that change in the original RFE, AFAIK.
Completely happy with some societies staying thematically matriarchal or patriarchal as wished, but my personal preference would be for the average overall percentage of female foos generated to rise, preferably to near 50%. Hopefully that would mean that races with a preference for one of the other gender would balance each other out. No issues there, flavour is better than uniformity!
Dropping the gender description is probably the best option in general and I've changed the RFE text to highlight that after a lot of people suggested it.
"Swordsman" isn't gender-neutral, but we already have a few that are; "Swordfighter", "Swordsmaster", "Mercenary", "Blademaster". "Swordswoman" is a term in general British use although one that is considered archaic - we have more neutral terms nowadays and use fewer swords. For a medieval-style fantasy setting it's probably
just archaic enough. I'd vote for either Swordsman/Swordswoman or a neutral term covering both (that isn't Swordsman).
"They" and "It" are already in the game IIRC for inanimate monsters and "they" is currently considered the default pronoun for someone whose gender or preferred pronouns are unknown. It's probably the most global of all existing nonbinary pronouns. That said, I would prefer to see he/she implemented too, rather than have to see "they" used throughout and all variation squashed. It was just a suggestion in case people want to add more than the two binary genders now they're going through all the trouble to change this in the first place!