Originally Posted by
SirTheta
Well, I assume you read my whole post, of which you quoted part, Silfir, but I think I've made my reasoning perfectly clear. I don't think ADOM should have situations where your options are artificially limited to a severe extent such that you are forced to rely on non-melee (or non-magic, or non-missiles) to overcome an obstacle (kill a monster). I think this is perfectly reasonable and *exactly* what ADOM is all about. I am definitively NOT saying that relying on a pure* build should be in any way easy, nor the easiest way, (although it currently is for missiles & magic and you continually argue that that is fine, so I have a lot of trouble taking you seriously here), but that ADOM should, in some manner, include a method of overcoming nearly an obstacle if you have the right preparation (items). Of course, there is no guarantee that the right preparation will be available in a given game, but this principle is exemplified in a number of items the game has to offer, and I think my position is very justified.
*again, includes wands
The rest of the post did nothing to
substantiate the claim that all optional challenges in the game should be possible with a pure melee character. Just named an existing item that happens to help with a different problem. You could also name amulets of free action if you really want to, I guess (paralyzation being another of the effects that PCs can only suffer in melee range). If I understand your argument correctly, it's that the existence of protective items for
some of the dangers associated with melee range are evidence of an underlying design principle that there should be protective items for
all dangers associated with melee range. I don't agree that such a principle exists or should be created, and in any case there will always be creatures in the game that are just a
terrible idea to melee; killer bugs, greater molochs, eternium golems and such. Do we need a protective item against critical hits, too? Of course you can pump a character far enough that they can take them anyway - but the same can be said for stat drains. In fact, you don't need to pump characters very hard because stat drains don't usually kill anyone or even get bad enough to cry a river about.
As for missiles and magic, it's the simplest thing: Would you rather be
a) three meters away from a lion while wielding a sword
b) three hundred meters away from a lion while wielding a gun?
The world of ADOM is full of dreadful monsters with terrifying strength, sharp claws and poisonous bites. Killing them from a distance,
if you can, is just
sensible. And
everyone can. You keep insisting that we specifically accomodate a "pure melee" build when the game simply wasn't designed to place any restriction like that on the characters, except perhaps for starting some of them with lower dexterity (which doesn't keep them from becoming very lethal with ranged weapons with not too much investment). That's the point I keep trying to make when I refer to games such as Diablo II, and which I think cycil was trying (rudely) to make before; ADOM isn't a game about "pure", straightforward builds. To keep going with the lion analogy, sensible ADOM characters carry both a sword and a gun; while they
prefer b) they can also deal with a), but they should expect a harder time of it and possibly permanent injury and death. An ADOM character using a "pure melee build" is someone who insisted on going on a lion hunt armed only with a sword even though he was offered a hundred guns and thousands of bullets to practice with. You can admire the guy's dedication, but ultimately he's an idiot.
By the way, including
wands in your definition of a "pure" melee build and
excluding both missiles or learned spell magic just doesn't make a lick of sense. Wands
contain spells, and you can use them from a distance. You're either a purist or you aren't. I could call myself a "pure animal lover, except I hate dogs and regularly kick them in their ugly faces" and it would make the same lack of sense.
We don't disagree, I think, that there could and should be
more creatures that are dangerous from a distance, perhaps even more dangerous than close up. Right now, not enough of those exist. But they should be added, and exist
alongside the creatures that are painful in melee. Deadly
ranged attacks by monsters
need to be easier to resist, though, because they're also much harder to successfully evade. That's why there are no ranged stat drains that I'm aware of, nor should there be.