Bones levels - encountering dead PCs
issueid=72 12-12-2008 03:14 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Laukku: 56
Bones levels - encountering dead PCs
Yet another feature stolen from NetHack

Bones levels - return of the dead

Details of how they excactly work in NetHack can be found here, but the basic idea is that once your PC dies, there is a chance that the level (s)he died in is saved as a "bones file", and when a different PC then enters an appropriate level, there is a small chance that the bones level will be loaded instead of a newly generated one. The level mostly remains unchanged, with the same monsters still wandering there (even the one that may have killed the previous adventurer) and stuff, but the ghost of the previous adventurer is haunting on the spot (s)he died, guarding his/her (now mostly cursed) inventory.

Fixing possible balance problems - my ideas
Implementing this 1:1 in JADE may cause some game balance issues, one being that low-level characters could find the remains of a high-level one, resulting in finding a heap of rare items after slaying a mere ghost. I have made up a possible variant inspired by "Great treasures are buried here" graves in ADOM, which I will now describe.

When a bones file would be created, the dead character would be converted into a special undead creature, perhaps something specially developed for this purpose, a "Memory" I'd propose. The Memory would have the same spell list, attributes, HP etc. as when it was alive, which would cause the Memories of high-level characters to be very deadly. It would also carry all its items - that way it MUST be killed to gain the items. Lastly, the Memory would initially rest in a grave (with an inscription like "Here lies [name], the [race & class], who was killed by [reason]. May (s)he rest in peace."). Any adventurer stumbling upon this grave could decide to just ignore it, or if (s)he is feeling particularly brave/greedy, (s)he could try to rob it, which would then cause the Memory jump out of the grave.

Suggestions and alternative ideas welcome.
Issue Details
Issue Number 72
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM II (formerly known as JADE)
Category Unknown
Status Suggested
Priority 6
Suggested Version Unknown
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 6
Votes against this feature 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-14-2008 02:58 PM
Ancient Member
Now that the forums work again, I'll mention that this was also discussed here.

01-27-2009 12:09 PM
Junior Member
Hmm, quite interesting. I myself never played enough in NH, but it's nice feature. But I don't like much idea about full inventory. IMO it wolud be better to generate just a few items (and no artifacts, no food, maybe no potions, etc.). Also I don't like idea about bones level. Again, IMO generating experienced monster (who killed previous PC), maybe some kind of ghost and some remains like bones would be enough. And definitely not a grave. Just something like :

You found a <not too old> heap of bones and some <valuable> equipment. It must be remains of some unlucky adventurer.
Do you want to disturb his peace? (y/N)
<y>
A <ghost> rises from bones!
Ghost (or some other ethemeral undead) actually is named and experienced according to dead PC, but not his spells/attributes/etc. Hey, imagine a ghost of paladin/priest casting Turn Undead!
Another thing, I don't know what it'll like in JADE, but I dislike idea of bones files. I know it isn't very good from the POW of programmer, but one binary file with all hiscore and bones information seems nice enough. Also this will prevent some kind of "bones scumming". After all, JADE isn't going to become some kind of online multiplayer like NH.

02-01-2009 05:50 AM
Junior Member
i have seen this feature implemented in the game dungeon crawl. in this game, a ghost character has spells and power similar to the deceased character, although no items are gained from killing it. the ghosts do not leave the level in which they died, and they are worth quite a bit of experience. this feature could be implemented on the simplest level by creating a named Ghost monster, with an experience level equal to the dead PC. the experience value of killing such a ghost should be reward enough. perhaps a ghost could have a chance to drop an item of a specific type, such as bows for archers, spellbooks for wizards, hammers for weaponsmiths, etc. higher level PCs could be generated as Ghost lords or Ghost Kings.

02-02-2009 03:35 PM
Junior Member
Yes! I am for this Idea. My brother and I have been trying to figure out some way to implement it without severe balance issues. This is what we came up with:
1) The chances of you meeting the ghost must be very low (max. of two or three per game... Maybe a talent that comes after Treasure hunter getting you a higher chance)
2) The dead person would be the same as when they were living (except dead... so weak to fire and turn spells)
3) Must dig to their shrine and defeat their worshipers
i.e.

#####################################################################
......................................##############################################ggg#
..............................@..................................................................... ....................####ggG#
......................................#########################################..####ggg#
############################################################..########

Where, if you were an archer, there would be rock throwers/raiders/ratling archers...etc
The shrines are like royal vaults.

4) the worshippers lvl. is proportional to the dead PC (but a lot lower because the ghost should be the hardest part)

5) once you kill them, you get a custom Artifact, but not necessarily very good (depending on lvl of PC)
i.e. Horaa's bow (+5,+1)
or Jen the Healer's Bracers of regeneration (+1,+1) [+3,+2] +reg. +poison res. +disease res.
or for higher level
i.e. Alesrax the Wizards spellbook Gives 1 casting of all the spells Alesrax had
or much better....
6) none of these artifacts should be as good as a randomly generated one, or something to that effect

7) The only PC's eligible for ghosts are ones on the high score list.

8) if the random artifact generator would be to complex, have a corpse.
i.e. Gruff the Barbarian corpse +1 To. +1 dam to fighting aggressively. This method can have set effects for every class, with each class having five or so options of effects where only two are chosen for an uncursed corpse.

03-22-2009 02:16 PM
Ancient Member
I think i like Fullmoon's idea the best... it really seems to fit within the lore as well. I mean, there are thousands of adventurers setting off into the world - the manual itself says so - so why would each one get a shrine? Even if it was only the really powerful ones... I don't know I just don't like the shrine idea. However, you did give me a good idea though Krough... what if, after Treasure Hunter, there was a Dungeon Raider talent(possible requiring additional talents as prerequisites) that increased the occurrence of vaults in dungeons?

04-02-2009 10:08 PM
Member
I have an alternative idea. I have never been very close to a win in ADOM yet, but I hate the idea of a game just -ending- when you win. How about a.. sort of "challenge game" was opened up, once you've won? Like a location at the map that was only open after you've gotten a win. In this temple you will enter once, and never come out. Here you will duel opponents that increases in difficulty until you die. How about throwing in NPCs that are shadows of previous winners in here? First of all I think it would be a fun challenge. Second of all, it would mix well with the lore. Previous winners would be natural to find in this location, as they too are there to fight for glory like the PC :)
These fights should be VERY challenging, and give a "bonus" score. (Perhaps a separate score than the game-score)

09-15-2009 05:26 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Fullmoon
But I don't like much idea about full inventory. IMO it wolud be better to generate just a few items (and no artifacts, no food, maybe no potions, etc.).
I think there should be a reward for defeating a Memory (or whatever it would be called), but on the other hand gaining too many valuable items would be unbalanced. Maybe convert artifacts into similiar non-artifact items, such as Staff of the Archmagi -> staff of the magi. Also, the requirement of being more powerful than the Memory helps: Trying to get the inventory from an archmage wish engine will be difficult - unless you're more powerful already, in which case you don't really need the stuff anyway.

And definitely not a grave.
Why not? NetHack has graves in bones levels, too. :P

Ghost (or some other ethemeral undead) actually is named and experienced according to dead PC, but not his spells/attributes/etc. Hey, imagine a ghost of paladin/priest casting Turn Undead!
Maybe have a few exceptions such as disabling Turn Undead, but otherwise they should be similiar to the dead PCs IMO. I mean, why disable attributes? Also, some PCs can be low-level but otherwise quite powerful. A lucky 7-level grey elven wizard might have already found herbs and spellbooks of Lightning Bolt and Teleport. Having similiar spells/skills/etc fits very well the "Monsters are players" philosophy, and makes the whole thing much more interesting. *I* would want to be able to fight against one of my former PCs! :D

Quote Originally Posted by RndmNumGenerator
I mean, there are thousands of adventurers setting off into the world - the manual itself says so - so why would each one get a shrine? Even if it was only the really powerful ones... I don't know I just don't like the shrine idea.
Not every dead character would be saved in a bones level/shrine, the chance should be small. 1/50 or something like that.

Encountering bones levels in should be even rarer: 1-2 in a single game. IIRC NetHack has a limit of one per game.

Also, PCs dying in a special level (such as the Elemental temples in ADOM or a level that already is a bones level) should prevent the level from being saved, because of possible problems. What if one has already taken an important artifact from a special level to somewhere else and then dies on the special level?

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