They seem to have more PV than in previous versions. They don't hit especially hard, but they are rather hard to damage.

When you 'l'ook at them, it shows that they are pretty well equipped... often better than the player. Monk's disarm is invaluable against them. Also, they hit hard if generated with a great sword for example. And xp for killing one is pitiful.

Hill orcs and hill orc sergeants suffer from the same "problem".

Ah, so this might not be a bug then. Thanks. But still, it seems unbalanced. I'd expect that stuff on a serious kind of monster, not these little guys. Especially considering it seems to be happening much more in these new versions.

Hill orcs are monsters that you don't meet until later on, so I don't think there is anything wrong with their difficulty level. They are supposed to be tougher than normal orcs.

On the other hand, you start finding hobgoblin warriors from the first level of the initial dungeon when you're level 1, and yes, their PV seems somewhat too high for that.

Well, it depends on what race you play and what items you find. Sergeants appear surprisingly early, and if you lack damage output to beat their PV (around 14), well, tough luck.

Ultimately, it's a problem that their PV seems to be well above the normal for the level. It makes them feel too hard.

I have that problem with the fire beetles. :/

Agreed. "L"ooking at them, it appears their PV is just above what the weapons you usually have at this point in the game can deal out. This is a problem.

I'll tackle that - although there equipment didn't change from former versions. I wonder if the new rules for critical hits have to do with the problem (damage now only is multiplied after penetrating PV - so higher PV potentially is a lot more valuable against critical hits).

It's probably that, because subjectively they have changed - characters that could handle them in previous versions now cannot.

This exactly. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with hobgoblin warriors and the like, but the new rule for critical hits is causing problems. It makes PV much harder to bypass. Imo it would be best to revert to the old rule. The reason it was introduced was because of dangerous lucky critical hits from certain monsters, especially those that can deal mighty blows, such as troll brutes. However, we need to keep in mind that such monsters will become much easier to deal with once ranged attacks are introduced. Besides, for certain race/class combinations the game is perfectly playable even without ranged attacks, and even without dual staff abuse. ;)

The new rule for critical hits is exploitable, too. If you disarm a monster and minimize your own damage while maximizing your PV, you can set up an endless fight and gain thousands of weapon marks from a single monster. This exploit might need additional thought in any case, but with the old rule for critical hits it was much harder to set up such an exploit because the critical hits would usually kill the monster (or you) soon enough.

I like the new system better and to deal with the abuses, it would be nice to just restore the old ADOM concept of "bypass" and "damage" PV. If you have a problem with high PV monsters, use a weapon that bypasses PV. If monsters have a problem with the PC's PV, their attacks could bypass PV or even outright damage your armor.

This is admittedly an ok solution for hobgoblin warriors, as any decent two-handed weapon will be sufficient.

But for tougher monsters such as fire giants, I doubt it. I haven't seen any fire giants in 0.2.6 yet, but in 0.2.4, I have only found one weapon in all my games that could (barely) damage them at all on non-critical hits: a rare large great club of devastation. Even a large eternium great sword can't bypass their PV. And weapons of penetration are really rare, if they exist at all in ADOM II.

I'm actually noticing a similar problem with Ogre Lords - it takes dozens of hits to kill them because their PV is so high. And I'm doing 2d15+27 damage.

No phase daggers in the game yet? Then they should be added to handle those monsters.

Aren't those fairly rare in ADOM? Wouldn't help with hobgobs that come early. Or are you thinking of for the big stuff?

There needs to be a cap on how many marks one can gain from a single monster.

Dervi, why do you like this new system? You say you like it but don't explain why..

This new combat system is a radical change from the way things worked in original ADOM, and in my opinion it upsets the game balance in several places. What is more, I do not see a good reason for this new system. The reason it was introduced was because certain monsters are dangerous when you attack them in straight-up melee. But is that really a bad thing? Again, please remember that we will soon have ranged attacks, magic and probably more methods of disabling, too (besides disarming).

In ADOM 1, there where also plenty of monsters that could kill you on critical hits. Molochs, balors, berserker emperors and the cat lord are some of the more extreme examples. And yet, no one complains about them, because you can kill them safely from a distance. The same will soon be true for troll brutes and the like.

Moreover, I had no problem killing giants and troll brutes safely in 0.2.4, in any case. Disarm + ring of speed + shard of elemental fire. Be quick and disarm them before they get a chance to hit you. The risk of them killing you was already very low, with this strategy. I made it very far into the game with several characters and "lucky criticals" were rarely the thing that stopped me, even when fighting barehanded.

And no, phase daggers have not been added yet to my knowledge, nor do I think they should be the only non-magical solution to high PV. And with this new rule, shooting through high PV will become much more difficult, too..

However, what I'm complaining about is that a specific, low-grade monster (hobgoblin warriors) seems disproportionately tough for where, when it appears and what kind of monster it is. It just doesn't make sense. What you are mentioning above are higher-grade monsters -- it makes sense for them to be powerful.

Mike, I am not arguing you.. I am arguing against the new rule for critical hits, which is the reason why hobgoblin warriors became stronger.

By now I have met some fire giants. Just as I expected, they have become extremely difficult to kill. A level 25 monk was not able to damage them at all with bare hands. With a large eternium great sword (only available to trolls of course) and a lot of patience I can kill them, but it feels like breaking a stone with your teeth.