Challenge mode -- turns elapse if you wait too long
issueid=3729 06-12-2015 07:22 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by auricbond: 257
Challenge mode -- turns elapse if you wait too long

I envision a challenge mode that would add a whole different gameplay angle. If you fail to make a decision after a certain amount of time has elapsed (say, 10 seconds) everyone on the map gets a move as if I had just pressed the '5' key. Of course you could adjust the delay up and down to alter the difficulty, and perhaps scale your final score accordingly?
Issue Details
Issue Number 3729
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 9
Suggested Version ADOM r58
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 13
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




06-22-2015 05:24 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by auricbond
I also don't care for people who vote against things based on an estimation of Thomas's time and resources, like they're quarterbacking as his personal assistant.
I do because those people (myself included) often have pending RFEs/bugfixes that are far higher on the priority list and the benefits of getting them asap outweigh the benefits of having an extra gameplay mode that few people would care about.

06-22-2015 05:34 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
I do because those people (myself included) often have pending RFEs/bugfixes that are far higher on the priority list and the benefits of getting them asap outweigh the benefits of having an extra gameplay mode that few people would care about.
And presuming to know the tastes and preferences of others, got it. I'll speak for others too and say that most of them have a sense of who they speak for.

A vote against someone else's ideas is not a vote for your own.

06-24-2015 02:20 AM
Senior Member
I vote against features that I don't think would add to my experience of the game. If I wouldn't play a game mode (or wouldn't appreciate having it around) I won't vote for it.

06-24-2015 10:08 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by psy_wombats
I vote against features that I don't think would add to my experience of the game. If I wouldn't play a game mode (or wouldn't appreciate having it around) I won't vote for it.
Sounds like you said two different things, there.

If I were indifferent, if I considered it to not effect me (and optional content falls into that category) I would simply abstain. If I thought it would detract from my own enjoyment, I would vote against.

I think Thomas can ultimately make his own decisions as to allocating his time to certain ideas and not others, and if people preempt that with their voting then it gives him a less clear picture of what people want, not more of one.

06-24-2015 02:54 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by gr3ybird
The main problem with menus in ADOM, and the reason that would never work for it, is that there is *so much junk* that fills them up. There are a zillion item types that are just subtle variations of each other. Potions of boost stat, gain stat, gain potential, missiles with very subtle differences that stack separately, etc. There's the same problem with skills, actually. Metallurgy and gemology should be combined, bridgebuiliding and woodcraft, archery and fletchery, first aid and healing, food preservation and survival, trap detection and disarmament, and so on.
No! One of the awesome things about ADOM is precisely that you have everything and the kitchen sink in it.

If I feel like playing a more minimalistic roguelike, I play Brogue, which is also a fine game. But ADOM is all about lugging around thousands of items and saving your life thanks to an obscure wand that was on page 10 in your inventory and you had been saving since your trip to the UD. And that rocks.

06-24-2015 03:09 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
No! One of the awesome things about ADOM is precisely that you have everything and the kitchen sink in it.

If I feel like playing a more minimalistic roguelike, I play Brogue, which is also a fine game. But ADOM is all about lugging around thousands of items and saving your life thanks to an obscure wand that was on page 10 in your inventory and you had been saving since your trip to the UD. And that rocks.
Sounds to me like you both agree with each other. He isn't complaining about the variety of items, but the lack of organizational tools to help deal with them.

Incidentally that strikes me with an idea-- create a field you can type into that does a real-time search/filter of the items, like any browser or word processor does these days.

06-24-2015 03:28 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
No! One of the awesome things about ADOM is precisely that you have everything and the kitchen sink in it.
If I feel like playing a more minimalistic roguelike, I play Brogue, which is also a fine game. But ADOM is all about lugging around thousands of items and saving your life thanks to an obscure wand that was on page 10 in your inventory and you had been saving since your trip to the UD. And that rocks.
Multifunctionality. Same item, different uses, based on context or player input.
Example:
Wand of x detection. You are prompted for what you want to detect: items/monsters/traps. You very rarely detect things, one extra keypress won't kill you.
Wand of the door (stupid name) makes a door if pointed at an empty square, unlocks one if pointed at a locked one.

But wait, you say, I like having 3 types of detection wands. Oh, well, you will love the alternate reality where there were wands of teleport self and teleport monster and teleport friendly npc.
This is really, really important, and I want you to listen to it: You like the way things are just because you are used to it, not because it's the best way to do things. If you were from the hypothetical world I just mentioned where there were 3 types of teleport wands, you would think that was best and having three different wands of detection was pointless. Get real here.

Elimination of redundancy. Some items can be eliminated with absolutely no decrease in the number of meaningful player choices.
Example:
right now iirc, we have: potion of boost stat x 9. we could have this: melee potion(boosts str/to/wil), ranged potion(boosts dex, per), mage potion(boosts ma, will), social potion(boosts ap, chr). Less than half the number. If you tell me the game is any worse off for this you are lying. More people would actually use boost potions now because in one shot you would be able to get what you needed for a particular situation. It's fine if they are a little more powerful, because they are lousy now.

Don't even get me started on ammo types with minor differences. What if healing potions had tiny differences in amount healed that kept them from stacking in the inventory? Yeah, it's just as bad as that except *you are used to it* so you think it's a good idea.

Right now dungeon levels and pc inventory are so packed with junk you miss important things.

It's funny, because a lot of people complain about how games in TES series have streamlined too much. But adom refuses to ever streamline anything. It. Never. Gives. Up. Any. Feature. Ever. There's no realization that things can ever be too complicated for their own good. And that's a problem.

EDIT: yeah, and alphabetical sorting within item subtypes would be ideal.

06-24-2015 04:16 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by gr3ybird
Multifunctionality. Same item, different uses, based on context or player input.
Example:
Wand of x detection. You are prompted for what you want to detect: items/monsters/traps. You very rarely detect things, one extra keypress won't kill you.
Wand of the door (stupid name) makes a door if pointed at an empty square, unlocks one if pointed at a locked one.

But wait, you say, I like having 3 types of detection wands. Oh, well, you will love the alternate reality where there were wands of teleport self and teleport monster and teleport friendly npc.
This is really, really important, and I want you to listen to it: You like the way things are just because you are used to it, not because it's the best way to do things. If you were from the hypothetical world I just mentioned where there were 3 types of teleport wands, you would think that was best and having three different wands of detection was pointless. Get real here.

Elimination of redundancy. Some items can be eliminated with absolutely no decrease in the number of meaningful player choices.
Example:
right now iirc, we have: potion of boost stat x 9. we could have this: melee potion(boosts str/to/wil), ranged potion(boosts dex, per), mage potion(boosts ma, will), social potion(boosts ap, chr). Less than half the number. If you tell me the game is any worse off for this you are lying. More people would actually use boost potions now because in one shot you would be able to get what you needed for a particular situation. It's fine if they are a little more powerful, because they are lousy now.

Don't even get me started on ammo types with minor differences. What if healing potions had tiny differences in amount healed that kept them from stacking in the inventory? Yeah, it's just as bad as that except *you are used to it* so you think it's a good idea.

Right now dungeon levels and pc inventory are so packed with junk you miss important things.

It's funny, because a lot of people complain about how games in TES series have streamlined too much. But adom refuses to ever streamline anything. It. Never. Gives. Up. Any. Feature. Ever. There's no realization that things can ever be too complicated for their own good. And that's a problem.

EDIT: yeah, and alphabetical sorting within item subtypes would be ideal.
I agree, aside from inventory there's a gradual creep of complexity and feature bloat that hasn't been countered with better tools to sort through it all. That's not to say that I have a problem with the state of the game, only that the number of those who would do have probably increased.

I wouldn't be surprised if talents were introduced as 'leg-up' for less skilled players, but it probably just served to make the game more intimidating whilst the more skilled players have something new to exploit.

06-24-2015 07:54 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by gr3ybird
Multifunctionality. Same item, different uses, based on context or player input.
Example:
Wand of x detection. You are prompted for what you want to detect: items/monsters/traps. You very rarely detect things, one extra keypress won't kill you.
Wand of the door (stupid name) makes a door if pointed at an empty square, unlocks one if pointed at a locked one.
The idea is that Adom world is a lush place with a multitude of stuff that doesn't practically do anything for you.
If you are a barbarian that likes to smash things, you won't ever need glockenspiels or spellbooks simply because 99,9% of barbarians will never be in a situation to use them.

Note that virtually all wands have effects that can be reproduced with spells so there is a correlation that makes it easier to remember.
Having wands that do not translate to spells create a kind of a dissonance.
I happen to find lots of wands of door creation and few wands of knocking but it's fine because I use the former much more frequently than the latter.
I believe this variety in items and the rate at which they appear in the game reflects their general usefulness and I'd hate to lose that.

Wands of detection kinda work in a similar way, they replicate features that would otherwise be class specific.
Mindcrafter can detect monsters, wizards (and several other classes) can learn summon monsters and use it, thieves can detect traps very effectively, though other classes can learn and eventually master the respective skills/spells.
Combining wands together would be detrimental to the diversity of needs in the first half of the game.
It would be a cheap solution to what very few people consider an actual issue - namely inventory clogging.
However, only a little continuous maintenance is needed on player's part to have a very clean and easily accessible inventory.

But wait, you say, I like having 3 types of detection wands. Oh, well, you will love the alternate reality where there were wands of teleport self and teleport monster and teleport friendly npc.
This is really, really important, and I want you to listen to it: You like the way things are just because you are used to it, not because it's the best way to do things. If you were from the hypothetical world I just mentioned where there were 3 types of teleport wands, you would think that was best and having three different wands of detection was pointless. Get real here.
Separation of item functions is important but what you are suggesting with the alternate world and teleportation is going overboard.
You made a wrong comparison. When you detect stuff, you detect separate entities that are governed by independent set of rules.
Teleportation would have to be able to teleport items and chunks of walls or doors to make sense in your context.
Otherwise it's just one effect that is applicable to both the PC and NPC, hence it's only a single wand.

There is no Adom world where separating those effects makes sense, if we adhere to the game rules.
However separating detection effects does make sense because it pertains to different classes of objects, unlike teleportation.
Besides, wands of teleportation are quite powerful in what they allow the PC to achieve, versus detection stuff.
It's reasonable that there should be only a single type of teleportation wand but multiple wands with weaker effects.

Elimination of redundancy. Some items can be eliminated with absolutely no decrease in the number of meaningful player choices.
Example:
right now iirc, we have: potion of boost stat x 9. we could have this: melee potion(boosts str/to/wil), ranged potion(boosts dex, per), mage potion(boosts ma, will), social potion(boosts ap, chr). Less than half the number. If you tell me the game is any worse off for this you are lying. More people would actually use boost potions now because in one shot you would be able to get what you needed for a particular situation. It's fine if they are a little more powerful, because they are lousy now.
What you are proposing with the potions is simply wrong.
Each attribute has to be considered within its own scope and combining effects like you suggested would be very harmful to how customizable a character is and how players approach attribute management.
You're advocating mini-poga here, where the great variety of classes demands to have each attribute considered separately.
The classes aren't just melee/ranged/magic, there is a vast grey zone here which defies categorization and your idea would only damage that.

Take a case where a mindcrafter has reached willpower of 26 with morgia.
Now is the time to get to the maze and grab that mino emp corpse and 6 poga.
But wait, there are some stat potions with combined effects and he could use some more strength.
But no, he can't drink that potion because increasing strength along with willpower ends up a net loss of several Wi points after he eats the corpse and cannot retrain that with morgia anymore.
Simplification for the sake of reducing inventory clogging is implemented poorly here and overall, gameplay suffers.
This is just one example out of countless more, I bet I can counter your every suggestion in this department with an Adom character that would be at a disadvantage because of that.
That's why potions have to be separate for each attribute and this setup is superior.

And yes, I'm telling you the game would be worse with your suggestion and that's not a lie, it's an educated opinion.

Don't even get me started on ammo types with minor differences.
What if healing potions had tiny differences in amount healed that kept them from stacking in the inventory? Yeah, it's just as bad as that except *you are used to it* so you think it's a good idea.
Right now dungeon levels and pc inventory are so packed with junk you miss important things.
I absolutely agree that the excess of ammo variety is killing part of the fun.
This is however an ongoing issue, there have already been rfes that targeted this issue and as it is now, there are no variations of missiles of *foo* slaying right now.
They stack nicely so the idea is to extend this further over the rest of missiles or AT LEAST give the player the choice to force them to stack at the cost of losing the variety.
I'm sure this will be discussed again and addressed by TB.
Yes, I am used to the current situation but I don't think it's a good idea.

The same is true for most other items.
The best way I see, how this could be implemented, is to dramatically cut down on same item variations.
A broadsword (+1, 1d7+1) can exist in about a dozen or more variations, why not cut it down to 3?

It's funny, because a lot of people complain about how games in TES series have streamlined too much. But adom refuses to ever streamline anything. It. Never. Gives. Up. Any. Feature. Ever. There's no realization that things can ever be too complicated for their own good. And that's a problem.
EDIT: yeah, and alphabetical sorting within item subtypes would be ideal.
This is a roguelike. What you lack in graphics and sound effects you have to make up for with the complexity of mechanics.
If you think there are too many items, perhaps you should try a different game.
I personally think there aren't enough items in Adom but that's just me.
Watch people playing Adom on the server, watch _Ln_ and how he entertains his pack-rat nature while completely in control of all items he picks up and what is where in his inventory.
He never gets lost searching through multiple pages of items and does so with enviable fluidity.
Adom inventory management is a mini-game of its own and I'd hate to see that go. Learn it and it ceases to be a problem and starts to work to your advantage.

Yes, TES games have been watered down to cater to the mentally handicapped console population that can't handle games with too many features.
When I remember what Morrowind was like and then play Skyrim, it's so fucking disappointing. That's why I play Adom.

EDIT: Wow this has to be the biggest monstrosity of a post I've ever created. What a slab of text, sorry about that ;)

06-24-2015 09:18 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous
What you are proposing with the potions is simply wrong.
Each attribute has to be considered within its own scope and combining effects like you suggested would be very harmful to how customizable a character is and how players approach attribute management.
You're advocating mini-poga here, where the great variety of classes demands to have each attribute considered separately.
The classes aren't just melee/ranged/magic, there is a vast grey zone here which defies categorization and your idea would only damage that.

Take a case where a mindcrafter has reached willpower of 26 with morgia.
Now is the time to get to the maze and grab that mino emp corpse and 6 poga.
But wait, there are some stat potions with combined effects and he could use some more strength.
But no, he can't drink that potion because increasing strength along with willpower ends up a net loss of several Wi points after he eats the corpse and cannot retrain that with morgia anymore.
Simplification for the sake of reducing inventory clogging is implemented poorly here and overall, gameplay suffers.
This is just one example out of countless more, I bet I can counter your every suggestion in this department with an Adom character that would be at a disadvantage because of that.
That's why potions have to be separate for each attribute and this setup is superior.

And yes, I'm telling you the game would be worse with your suggestion and that's not a lie, it's an educated opinion.
What you are telling me is that you didn't read my post. It was about potions of BOOST attribute, not gain attribute. I'm not saying boost potions should have any permanent effect on stats or stat potentials.

Edit: I just looked and I used the word boost four times in the part you quoted about this. WTF.

On the other issues we obviously just disagree.

Edit 2: One of the first things you said: 'The idea is that Adom world is a lush place with a multitude of stuff that doesn't practically do anything for you.''

One of the last: "If you think there are too many items, perhaps you should try a different game.'

Okay, wait, what? You just posted an RFE about decreasing the number of redundant items. Look it makes sense if you disagree with me on *these particular examples* but your last post is mostly about how you think no items *at all* should be taken out of the game. Huh?

06-25-2015 12:41 AM
Ancient Member
Yeah I somehow got the idea you referred to potions of gain attributes in general.
For boosters, my opinion stands true.
It's better to have separate potions for each attribute so you avoid using something for a desirable boost that also grants boost you might need in a different situation.

As for items - what you said about wands and potions clearly means removal of certain items, that's what I am against.
What I posted in my RFE is about removal of needless STAT variety of existing items, not items themselves, there's a huge difference.
Yes, I advocate more items in Adom but not more variety of item statistics.

06-25-2015 03:37 AM
Senior Member
No, no and no!

In-game lag is a problem enough in itself, making a challenge mode out of it is plain stupid.
In the end game my character has easily dozens and dozens of screenful of items in inventory, even "repeat last command" can take 3-4 seconds to execute, not to mention the original command where you have to actually select the item you want to use.

06-25-2015 11:27 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by SinsI
No, no and no!

In-game lag is a problem enough in itself, making a challenge mode out of it is plain stupid.
New real-life challenge mode: articulate yourself in a polite way.

What is 'in game lag'? You mean when the renderer or background computation causes things to slow down? If so then I'm not sure you understood what the mode is about.

Or that it is optional--you know, like many other already-existing challenge modes that some people may find distasteful, but one can nonetheless have respect for the fact that others may enjoy them and so hey, let them have what they want as far as I'm concerned since it doesn't hurt me?

In the end game my character has easily dozens and dozens of screenful of items in inventory, even "repeat last command" can take 3-4 seconds to execute, not to mention the original command where you have to actually select the item you want to use.
You're in the category of people who already find the game difficult enough--nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if anyone reading is (or was) a part of the community of Final Fantasy fans, but those games are constantly experimenting with the formula. Example: Final Fantasy 10 was turn-based and you could take as long as you wished to plan your next move, Final Fantasy 8 had 'active time battle' where gauges filled up after which, if you hadn't acted by then, your opponent would.

Is one inherently superior to the other? IMO they're just different, but some people would swear that one is objectively superior to the other, and could be quite fascist in their attitude about it.

I can appreciate the merits of both, but I also don't begrudge people their opinion if they feel very strongly that one is flat out better and the other inferior--provided that they don't then think that there is something wrong if a future game presented you at the start with the option to play either a turn-based or quasi-real-time game-mode, so that everyone gets what they want. What on earth could be wrong with that?

Ok, I can see that there is something to be said for "making a game that has two modes could divert development energy from the one I prefer to the one that I don't, and so neither ends up being well refined"--but why think like that, since it's quite possible that they could both be well-implemented? And in ADOM's case, one already is.

Personally I think the negative sentiment toward this idea is a representational issue--those who stuck with ADOM and are an active part of its community are those who like it for what it is and how it plays to their strengths (and doesn't push their weaknesses)--but even if you find the game mode absolute torture, why not accept that it can be appealing for others? I very much disagree with Blasphemous that 'noone would play it'--it's simply that the people who would find it appealing are under-represented in the existing community.

06-25-2015 11:38 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by auricbond
Personally I think the negative sentiment toward this idea is a representational issue--those who stuck with ADOM and are an active part of its community are those who like it for what it is and how it plays to their strengths (and doesn't push their weaknesses)--but even if you find the game mode absolute torture, why not accept that it can be appealing for others?
In such vain any additional mode/optional should be upvoted, no?

I think it is best to leave for others to decide what they like or not. So towards question implement feature or not, expressing personal point of view [would I like it or not] is fairly representitive. Afterall if there is huge amount of people liking it they would definitely upvote it.

Personally I am not looking forward to game taking three moves while i try finding proper wand on d50.

06-25-2015 11:44 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
In such vain any additional mode/optional should be upvoted, no?
No, I think that if one is unaffected by a mode that they don't care for being implemented, that they should abstain.

Example: I'll probably never play lithium man--doesn't appeal to me. However, I would not vote against an RFE that proposes a mode that enforces lithium man rules.

I think it is best to leave for others to decide what they like or not. So towards question implement feature or not, expressing personal point of view [would I like it or not] is fairly representitive. Afterall if there is huge amount of people liking it they would definitely upvote it.
I agree. And I don't mind this idea being shot down by a land-slide, just that it be for the right reasons. I think it's pretty unambiguous at this point what I think those reasons are, so I won't try and push that argument further.

Personally I am not looking forward to game taking three moves while i try finding proper wand on d50.
Personally I like how, whether or not this idea ever sees the light of day, contemplating its existence has pushed people to think of ways to make the game's interface a lot quicker to interact with such that finding and/or checking for the existence of a needed wand can happen in a more timely fashion. I think we all like extra time in our lives, particularly after a certain age, whether or not our enemies (in-game or real-life) get a turn when we dally too long. ;)

06-28-2015 11:52 PM
ixi ixi is offline
Junior Member
AFAIK it took 20 minutes to make transform Diablo from turn-based to real-time. Although I don't think it would be so easy for ADOM. As a developer who worked with ancient C-codebases I know that it might be a nightmare to implement.

Personally I am not looking forward to game taking three moves while i try finding proper wand on d50.
I'm not too. Just 'cause it would make this game very different.

But I am looking forward to have this as a challenge. If you have 20 pages of inventory, 30 skills, 40 spells, 10 companions / slaves and class powers - it must be hard to make choice, your PC has to waste it's own time to find proper item, recall proper spell of skill. If you're surrounded by berserking monsters - why they have to wait for while before you make your wise choice?
ADOM UI isn't that bad. It's just the matter of how we use it. It's not more complex then our interface of the real life.

I agree that the game should be paused as easy as you can save the game now. If we ever see this implemented...

06-29-2015 03:22 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by ixi
AFAIK it took 20 minutes to make transform Diablo from turn-based to real-time. Although I don't think it would be so easy for ADOM. As a developer who worked with ancient C-codebases I know that it might be a nightmare to implement
And this is what really, really bothers me. Conceptually it's not that bad to implement.

The main loop is probably something kind of like this, right?

while pc is alive:

get player input

draw screen

if pc has acted:
monsters act

So you could just add a condition to say:

if pc has acted or turn_time > x:
monsters act

Yeah, it might be a lot more complicated than that, but it also might not.

This is assuming time still freezes in the inventory because I would guess messing with that part would be pretty complicated.

06-29-2015 08:14 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by gr3ybird

if pc has acted:
monsters act
Well, ADOM uses speed+energy point system, which breaks checks into certain segments. I think in some manual it was explained rather in detail. [In essence on some checks [1/x of turn, don't recall what x is, but at some point speed does not give bonus as you get energy on each check] player and mobs get some energy, faster your speed faster your checks come in. Once active party collects y[I think 1000] energy points he can act - acting subtracts energy points equal to energy cost of action [later can be viewed in game]].

06-29-2015 05:21 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Soirana
Well, ADOM uses speed+energy point system, which breaks checks into certain segments. I think in some manual it was explained rather in detail. [In essence on some checks [1/x of turn, don't recall what x is, but at some point speed does not give bonus as you get energy on each check] player and mobs get some energy, faster your speed faster your checks come in. Once active party collects y[I think 1000] energy points he can act - acting subtracts energy points equal to energy cost of action [later can be viewed in game]].
Probably you just increment all actors' energy by the amount of energy required for pc's next action. What you are doing is the exact same thing as if the pc moved, there is just no movement. I'm working on something else at the moment, but some time in the near future I will try to code this to prove that it works.

02-12-2021 10:11 AM
Ancient Member
So if you followed this thread at the time you'll know that whether or not people like the feature, it prompted people to talk about innovating in the area of interfaces and inventory handling to make things more bearable under the pressure of enemies getting turns whilst you navigated the sprawling menus.

I've decided now that what is needed is dev/dungeon-master perversity: Innovate better menu handling that would make the new game mode more manageable, and then only allow its (optional) use in default game mode and lock people out of it in the turns-elapsing mode, forcing them to struggle with the classic menus.

I like very MUCH the idea of slapping a game mode on with no consideration for reality, and then and seeing how fate and the universe get a giggle out of people struggling to make it a playable experience for themselves.

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