[Suggestion] New functionality for Haggling skill
issueid=1216 08-27-2012 04:47 AM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by Aielyn: 17
[Suggestion] New functionality for Haggling skill
Because the haggling skill is practically useless at the moment

At the moment, the haggling skill is one of the least useful skills in the game. At best, you get to occasionally try to haggle a shopkeeper's prices down a little bit, with practicing the skill often resulting in prices going up instead. As such, I am suggesting a new functionality to be given to the skill.


My suggestion is that it should be possible to use the skill on any non-hostile, non-companion NPC that is capable of talking.

What would it do? 50% chance either way for the NPC to either offer you an item for some price, or look at what you have and offer you some money for something. Would only be possible once per NPC. Higher haggling skills would improve prices in both directions, and would have better chance of more specific information if they're offering you an item (low haggling skill = "Would you like to buy my sword? Just 130 gp."; high haggling skill = "Would you like to buy my mithril long sword? Just 100 gp."). The Appraising skill could also help to determine whether the deal is a good one (thereby giving new value to that skill, too). I'd expect that certain types of NPC would be restricted in terms of what they can offer - for instance, a Child probably wouldn't offer many things, mostly candy, apples, worthless pieces of glass, fluff balls, wooden sticks, and the occasional whistle or flute - but in a rare situation, a child might offer something significant, like an amulet, or a more valuable gem, or a ring.

There could also be a small chance (say, 5%) that the NPC will offer a trade of items - "Nice Clean Robes you've got there. Care to trade them for this amulet?"

If the quality of the item being offered were mostly dependent on the experience level of the NPC, it would prevent this from being easily abused, and instead just make haggling possibly a useful skill for PCs seeking to remain lawful (being, in some ways, the opposite of pickpocketing in this regard), and happening upon a neutral NPC in some dangerous location.

There could even be a few special NPCs that always offer certain things when haggled with. For instance, perhaps haggling with Ruun (when of the right alignment) will give you the chance to get, say, a few holy waters, or a ring of luck (I'm undecided on what the best option would be). Haggling with the mad minstrel could get you an offer of a random instrument. Haggling with Yggaz might result in him offering an item in exchange for a potion of booze, if you have one. Haggling with Dak might result in him offering you a special piece of armour that belonged to a previous Arena opponent (as he puts it).

It could use the same flag as pickpocketing, to prevent you from repeatedly haggling with the same NPC (with some exceptions, perhaps, of NPCs that have many items to offer and lots of money), or it could have a new flag added (or even a little more than that, to enable the PC to reject the offered item, and then haggle again for the same item later).
Issue Details
Issue Number 1216
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Linux
Status Suggested
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 2
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 10
Votes against this feature 3
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




08-27-2012 04:18 PM
Ancient Member
So players are forced to go chat to every damned townsperson and ratling trader to scout good deals? How horribly boring :(

I think it would be better if haggling became a passive skill that gives better prices from shopkeepers. The more you buy/sell the more the skill is trained and your prices automatically improve, up to say 50% at max skill. Should also work with ratling traders. This would be a simpler system and more useful in general, and in particular would be handy for dark elves and orcs.

08-27-2012 05:39 PM
Ancient Member
I don't think it sounds boring! It's just a little unique thing that you can use if you want! In the early game, say, after the Druid or Old Guy quest you usually have some cash, and it would be pretty nice then!

Also, he's right, it's kind of like pickpocketing, but not evil. I think the skill would really add to the Immersion Factor.

08-28-2012 04:03 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Grey
So players are forced to go chat to every damned townsperson and ratling trader to scout good deals? How horribly boring :(
As Lasher said, and I said before that, this is no different from pickpocketing, except that it's lawful, it can only be done on non-hostile beings, and nothing is free. Also, the ratling dealer and the ratling traders wouldn't actually give deals - the former because of a monopoly, the latter because they're there to work the "crowds" at the Arena.

In reality, most of the items and offers given early in the game wouldn't be worth it, anyway. The real value would be when you get deep into the CoC, and you happen across a friendly being of some sort - these are the ones that are likely to give you great deals. While there would be a small chance of a good deal from townspeople, one would have to ask whether it's worth spending the time checking them all - in other words, most people probably wouldn't spend their time doing it unless they needed to. On the other hand, it would be smart to try haggling with each nonhostile NPC you come across in regular dungeon levels.

And in the end, your best bet would be to try haggling with the uniques. Of the various NPCs found in towns, etc, these would be the most likely to have something interesting to trade.

08-28-2012 07:40 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Aielyn
As Lasher said, and I said before that, this is no different from pickpocketing (...)
Yeah - and pickpocketing *is* boring.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not straight against this, but I think Grey has a good point. If something like this is implemented, it should be balanced very carefully so that it doesn't turn into yet another way of scumming.

Whether it's implemented or not, I'd be perfectly happy if the penalties for failed haggling were nerfed and (especially) if casino gold were given a downside (e.g. corruption). What makes haggling useless is that in the early game your skill is only good for getting penalties, and in the endgame the economy is totally broken due to the casino.

08-28-2012 10:20 AM
Ancient Member
There are plenty of useful DL1 items, so I don't see any balance of rewards stopping people from haggling every citizen of Terinyo (and naming each one to track them properly). Even if you don't want the items it trains the skill for later when it'll be useful. So so dull! Eugh! It's even worse than pickpocketing because you have to go chasing all around every corner of DwarfTown and the like. Also to stop it ruining immersion you'd need a flag on lots of NPC that prevents haggling - otherwise you'd have people haggling with the dying sage and the black unicorn.

If the rewards are shit then the skill is still useless, by the way.

08-28-2012 10:37 AM
Ancient Member
Voted yes but on second thought agree with Grey. Making it a passive skill that affects shopping would be a very elegant and simple way to make it useful.

08-31-2012 10:35 AM
Senior Member
Grey, it still uses money, don't you remember?
Yes, you can haggle to everybody in Terinyo - well, you can completely buy a HMV shop, why don't you do that? Yeah, because you don't have that much money.

08-31-2012 02:35 PM
Senior Member
I'd also suggest that haggling with people shouldn't be what trains the skill - it's actually successfully haggling a deal that trains it. In other words, unless you actually accept the deal, you don't get any skill training. Just like Pick Pockets - it's not trained unless it's actually successful.

Al-Khwarizmi - It's hard to scum it, because you need large numbers of friendly, humanoid, high-level monsters in order to even have more than a few worthy targets, and you need enough money to be able to afford their prices (which, if the Casino exploits are fixed, may not be trivial). So in terms of scumming, it should be less abusable than pick pockets.

Grey - it shouldn't be complicated. I mean, it's very similar to the flags on NPCs to say if they can be pickpocketed, if they can drop corpses (or probabilities thereof), etc. In fact, as I recall, the Dying Sage already has special reactions to most possible interactions, to prevent you from, for instance, giving him things he can't use. Working from memory, though, I haven't really tried doing those sorts of things in any modern time. More generally, most uniques have special reactions to at least some functions - why would this be any different?

As for usefulness, as I pointed out, the value comes when you find high level friendly haggle-able monsters, where there's a high chance of quality items... the difficult part, though, is finding such monsters. Keep in mind, the item quality does increase as you go deeper, so items you might get from Dwarftown inhabitants are likely to be better quality than from those in Terinyo, but not as good as what you might get offered by a Casino guard. If item quality tended to be just a little better than typical for the DL, this would give just enough value to encourage a bit of use, but not enough to justify using it at every possible opportunity.

I think it's unrealistic to think that, just because you have some chance of getting a nice item from this, people will end up overusing it, and thus becoming bored. You're the player, you decide what you do and what you don't do. Nothing says you HAVE to use haggling on regular monsters or town inhabitants, just as having Pick Pockets doesn't mean you have to try to pick the pockets of every single monster you see.

08-31-2012 04:10 PM
Ancient Member
Um.... I like both ideas. Do both, maybe? Any reason that can't work? If you like to haggle, you can. If you haggle more, it trains, and you get better shop prices, without wasting a skill increase.

11-01-2012 07:07 AM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Aielyn
As Lasher said, and I said before that, this is no different from pickpocketing, except that it's lawful, it can only be done on non-hostile beings, and nothing is free. Also, the ratling dealer and the ratling traders wouldn't actually give deals - the former because of a monopoly, the latter because they're there to work the "crowds" at the Arena.
Yes ! Yes ! Please make it work similar to pickpocket, that only works on friendly beings. Then remove the Pick Pockets skill. Two birds with one stone. Pick Pockets is a terrible skill from design point of view, it sounds kind of cool at first but it's extremely hard to balance, it's basically Treasure Hunter with extra interface nuisance. The silly part is that pickpocketing makes items appear out of thin air - you get items monsters don't have on them when they die. The only difference from Treasure Hunter is a theoretical one - Pick Pockets can be used on neutral (non-hostile) beings without making them hostile. However, it has a good chance to turn monsters hostile so it's very rarely used that way.

This would have some nice side effects. For example Merchants, who start with Haggling skill, would benefit from staying Neutral rather than Lawful because that way more monsters are generated non-hostile. More people to haggle with.

Passive price reduction is simple and would work, but is also boring. Fundamentally, money doesn't matter in this game except for early on, when you don't have skills at high levels anyway. Fixing Haggling by making it reduce price is not worth a mummer's fart until gold itself starts mattering. This would need to be tackled separately, for instance stopping Casino from generating infinite money, spawning more shops, making shoplifting riskier, and generating great (but very expensive) items in shops more often. Artifacts in shops, why not ?

11-01-2012 12:25 PM
Senior Member
Can't tell if b0rsuk is just agreeing with Silfir, or if Silfir made a second account to give himself the appearance of consensus...

11-01-2012 03:31 PM
Ancient Member
You guys are forgetting about the Calm monster spell. Which would actually become usefull and the scumming continues.

11-14-2012 12:34 PM
Senior Member
I like both ideas too.

I don't have a problem with pickpocketing as it is now--some of my chars do it, and others refuse it. It's just one more role-playing choice that increases my immersion in the game. I would love to have another option for interacting with the neutral or friendly monsters, and the haggling suggestion would be a fun way to do so.

Pickpocketing would be a little more logical if a successful pp attempt reduced the chance that a monster drops a non-themed item. I don't know exactly how that code works, but for example any dwarf appears to have a ~20% chance of dropping a pickaxe, and ~20% chance of dropping a random item. Chaos knights often drop eternium armor and longsword, but there's also the chance they drop a random item. So I'm suggesting a scenario where a really skilled pickpocket could work an orc vault and end up with the loot from the thieving, and aside from that receive only a pile of orcish spears and daggers.

An even more logical solution would be if the monster's items were generated along with the monster, not at time of death, and PP actually looked in their inventory to find a small item.

11-14-2012 03:46 PM
Ancient Member
Hmm... Here'd be my suggestion for how to change haggling.

You pick up a stack of items and use haggle on shoppie. If successful, he'll give you a discount, but only on that specific set of items, and you're prompted on the spot to take it or leave it. If you leave it, you have to haggle again for discount. Shoppie will never raise the price, but after every haggle, there's a small chance that the shoppie will decide he doesn't want to haggle on any future deals and you pay at regular price.

However, there's a small chance at high skill levels that the shoppie will say something like, "Tell you what, you take it at (regular price), but I'll throw in a free <item>". Where the item is some item that is not part of the shop's current stock (but consistent with the shop's type--or maybe not, it could just be something from shoppie's personal stash), but whose value is proportional to the value of the goods you're buying.

For example, suppose you're in a potion shop, and you buy 1000 gold worth of potions. After a successful haggle, the shoppie says "I'll throw in a free potion of invisibility", which say might be worth ~20% of the stack. If you do the same but buy 10000 gold in potions, the shoppie might throw in a better potion, perhaps extra healing or a stat potion.

12-08-2012 11:32 PM
Ancient Member
Well, I don't know whether this is going to be implemented. Looking at history there is a pretty good chance.

I just want to reiterate that magic-users and lawful PCs will be benefitting earlier/more than others, because of the 'Calm Monster', 'Scare Monster' spell, Unholy Aura corruption and offering [p]eace feature.

So maybe this is a way to have this for the Lawful PCs and Pickpocketing for the not-so-Lawful PCs.

But then you might get evil PCs that calm the NPC with the spell, haggles, pickpocket and then backstab the NPC. So I suggest that a single NPC can either be haggled or pickpocketed, but not both.

Hopefully undead or gibbering mouthers won't be haggleable :-P

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