Spenseweed nerf
issueid=3247 07-29-2014 01:00 PM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by sillihai: 43
Spenseweed nerf
Spenseweed is too powerful. Collect a large enough stack and it'll make hp recovery trivial for the rest of the game. If you don't have herbalism (so all picked herbs are cursed), just use a scroll of uncursing and you're set. You'll probably need healing potions and prayers only for fighting bosses and some rare, hard-hitting monsters. Healing yourself in deep dungeon levels should be risky. You never know what's going to bash through that door when you're 'w'aiting for your wounds to heal. OTOH you can pop some spense for an almost instantaneous recovery.

Most players don't probably spend much time collecting this herb but I think there should be some kind of nerf anyway. I suggest the PC should develop a resistance to the healing effect in two ways: short-term and long-term. Short-term means that using many spenseweeds in succession makes them heal less hp per pop. Maybe so that the tenth heals only a few hp. After a short amount of in-game time (half hour maybe?) this goes back to normal. Long-term resistance increases so that for every 15 spenseweeds used, the maximum healing effect is reduced by one. This could also be indicated by some kind of message. Like, "You seem to getting less sensitive to the effects of this herb".

This nerf wouldn't be too harsh I think. Then again drakelings taking on the tower might object. :) Thoughts?
Issue Details
Issue Number 3247
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 10 - Lowest
Suggested Version ADOM r50
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 19
Attachments 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




07-29-2014 01:39 PM
Ancient Member
Well, the effectiveness of spenseweed has already been nerfed compared to earlier versions. I'm not sure if it needs further work. That said, one possible solution would be to allow herbs to rot... probably on a much slower timescale than food (maybe dependent on herbalism or gardening), but applying essentially the same mechanic. This would prevent people from building up huge herb stockpiles.
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07-29-2014 01:52 PM
Senior Member
This change further increases the gulf between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. For that reason I'm totally against spenseweed nerfs.
That being said, if it *did* need nerfing, I think this is the direction nerfs should be aimed in - reducing scummy play, while minimising non-scummy backlash.
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07-29-2014 01:56 PM
Ancient Member
Spense is powerful, but I don't think it's too powerful compared to other sources of fast healing, like items of regeneration, healing spells (especially cure light wounds) or blessed necklace of rapid healing.
Of course all of these, including spenseweed, are not suitable for urgent healing but that's what potions of extra/ultra healing, water orb or prayers are for.
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07-29-2014 06:10 PM
Ancient Member
Spenseweed's effectivity was already reduced to 40% (if I remember correctly) of what it was in 1.1.1. I think that and the changes to stat potentials (making morgia, mareillon and stomacemptia way less awesome) are enough herb nerfing already.
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07-30-2014 04:56 PM
Senior Member
I think it actually needs a buff: you should be able to rub spenseweed on companions, healing them.
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08-16-2014 08:05 PM
gdo gdo is offline
Junior Member
Why does everyone feel the need to suggest that we nerf everything? What game do you want to play in, exactly - the game where everyone learns cure light wounds as soon as possible and scums the Infinite Dungeon for dark sage corpses? Noncasters have relatively few sources of healing as it is, and particularly in the early game, spenseweed is one of the few ways to get around that.
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08-16-2014 08:47 PM
Ancient Member
gdo: it's not everyone - see the 12 votes against this feature. Some people just don't think through their suggestions before posting them, or have idiosyncratic views of the game that aren't in accordance with how it actually plays for most people, so you get suggestions like this.
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08-16-2014 09:39 PM
Senior Member
I like SinsI's idea
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08-17-2014 05:53 PM
Junior Member
Too bad this suggestion was met with such opposition. :P My thinking behind it was that because spenseweed offers a potentially infinite source of hp recovery, it devalues the healing skill and natural regeneration of your PC. Even regeneration granting items have a downside in that they take up an inventory slot (and are a rare lategame find). Spense just encourages you to scum a large amount of it, equip it in the tool slot and spam 'u' every time you need to heal a few hp. There's no downsides, other than the extra weight you have to carry. I see it as kind of similar to other scummy (and already fixed) tactics such as the gremlin bomb. Gremlins = infinite stream of loot, so your actual luck with the RNG loses its meaning. Spense = infinite healing source with no downsides. Even though all players didn't abuse the gremlin trick, it still was fixed. Why not also make the herb less scummy, then?

Spense should be like a drug. With prolonged use it starts to lose its effect. You would have to be smarter about when to use it.

On a sidenote, I like SinsI's idea too.
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08-17-2014 08:51 PM
Senior Member
No downsides? It's slow, requires the Herbalism skill, forces the player to spend forever in the big room or elsewhere waiting for herbs to grow, it's liable to get burned or exploded out of your tool slot, etc. I'd rather *not* be cowering behind locked doors as a L20+ PC anyway, pressing w5 is uninteresting and almost painful.
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08-18-2014 12:08 AM
Junior Member
I too am fine with the current implementation, and like SinsI's idea. ..but is there an existing mechanic to be able to use it on others? I don't want it to become awkward to use because another option is added to its use.
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08-18-2014 10:46 AM
Ancient Member
I still think more than half of the classic ADOM game balance problems would have been solved with a single change: making herbs finite. Stoma saccing, morgia/moss scumming, spenseweed scumming... all of them stem from the same root, that you can get infinite herbs. It's the only item (apart from the si) which you can farm infinitely and that is the game-breaking thing, not the herb effects.

Of course, I know we'll never see finite herbs, people love their game of life.
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08-18-2014 04:08 PM
Senior Member
It is also a bad gameplay mechanic, since you are forced to stay on the same level for very long periods of time, or return to the same level numerous times.
That's why I think SI's mechanic would have been much better for herbs - add some kind of flower pots that you put seeds into and carry around with you, that generate a set amount of new herbs per time while you walk around doing your business.
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08-18-2014 04:41 PM
Senior Member
Well, they kindof are if you care at all about your turns taken! To be honest if background corruption occurred on *all* dungeon levels after, say, 10,000 turns had elapsed, herbs would probably be unabusable! ;)
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08-18-2014 08:21 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by sylph
Well, they kindof are if you care at all about your turns taken! To be honest if background corruption occurred on *all* dungeon levels after, say, 10,000 turns had elapsed, herbs would probably be unabusable! ;)
More like 3,000 turns, but yes. If it were significant corruption, that would also fix many imbalances.
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