Some game commands reveal the current position of the PC if he is blind
issueid=2463 11-10-2013 10:17 AM
jt jt is offline
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Number of reported issues by jt: 159
Some game commands reveal the current position of the PC if he is blind

Some game commands, e.g. 'n'ame or 't'arget, reveal the current PC position if he is blind: the cursor will reveal your current position.

Maybe we should move the cursor to a random position or the nearest monster then? Or disable the commands...

Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
The player character is blind, (s)he cannot see him/herself or any monsters to name/target, nor his/her position on the map. So, disabling it is appropriate in most part.

I would say allowing the player to rename the player character only should probably still be possible, without indicating the PC's position.

What happens with ordering companions while blind?
Issue Details
Issue Number 2463
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 19
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




11-10-2013 04:37 PM
Ancient Member
For 'n'aming, I'd turn it into a "do you want to rename yourself?" prompt while blind.

Automatically putting the cursor over the nearest monster during blind missile combat would make just as much sense as current behavior; choosing a random tile immediately adjacent to the PC might work.

11-10-2013 05:03 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by anon123
...choosing a random tile immediately adjacent to the PC might work.
That would still give away the PC's current position. This is a difficult one. I will think and come back in a few minutes.

Edit - Monsters cannot shoot at us when they are blind, so why should we be able to. If this must be a possibility to use missiles while blind, then maybe just prompt a direction followed by a range. prompt x, y from PC's position. Example x = -4 or +2 and y = -1 or +3. Just explain it in the prompt. -(minus) is west or north and +(plus) is east or south. Or whichever co-ordinate system adom uses.

Edit 2 - Not exactly what this RFE is about, but there should probably be a massive penalty to to-hit and damage when shooting blind.

11-10-2013 07:39 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
If this must be a possibility to use missiles while blind, then maybe just prompt a direction followed by a range.
That would get a little cumbersome if you want to shoot a lot, but it's another possible solution.

Or perhaps fix 'n'aming, but leave missile targeting as is. It's not a terribly important bug, and blind PCs have other serious things to deal with.

11-11-2013 04:37 AM
Member
I think shooting blind should be locked to the 8 directions at max range

11-11-2013 05:20 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Deathwind
I think shooting blind should be locked to the 8 directions at max range
That would be the simplest interface wise, the PC cannot see a specific tile to target there anyway. So, this also actually makes the most sense. Assuming PCs have a 'build-in' compass. :p

11-15-2013 11:30 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by anon123
For 'n'aming, I'd turn it into a "do you want to rename yourself?" prompt while blind.
This...

Quote Originally Posted by Deathwind
I think shooting blind should be locked to the 8 directions at max range
...and this...

are definitely the way to go. Consider the "blind archer" - a not-that-rare character archetype - someone is bound to be really disappointed eventually if it's made flat out impossible. There doesn't seem to be a downside game quality-wise to 8 directional shooting.

11-15-2013 02:19 PM
Ancient Member
So we finally allowed shooting in the darkness just to get it unusable again?

Frankly, I don't understand the issue at all. As a player you are able to tell the position of your PC at all times (barring several cases with staggering around) as you see the the map and you know which command placed you somewhere. Unless blindness is made to screw with the interface even more than it is doing now, disallowing actions like shooting is not fair at all. Consider simple movement - try drawing a grid on the sand and going from point A to point B with your eyes closed. This is really far from trivial, but in ADOM your PC is able to orient his/her movement with pinpoint accuracy while blind/in complete darkness.

11-15-2013 02:28 PM
Ancient Member
Blindness shouldn't be revealing the map.

IIRC, when Soirana did his blind monk game, he made maps of every level by hand just from thudding around against walls.

11-15-2013 03:09 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
Blindness shouldn't be revealing the map.
Why not, in darkness the map is revealed and the PC certainly has not lost the sense of touch and his/her ability to memorize a level's layout while blind.

11-15-2013 03:16 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
Blindness shouldn't be revealing the map.

IIRC, when Soirana did his blind monk game, he made maps of every level by hand just from thudding around against walls.
When your PC is not blind you order him to move to a specific spot (which is incidentally marked by direct coordinates in your (player's) mind) and the PC is moving to that specific spot (which (s)he can perfectly see) without the need to orient him/her by a compass direction.

When your PC is blind (s)he will have to orient himself to get to the point where you want him/her to be. You press NW button and your PC goes there despite the fact (s)he can't see anything. If you know the initial point, you are able to keep track of your PC's position.

I'm not talking about the zen monk challenge. If you get blind on a mapped level, you can still navigate without much trouble (in any case, it will be your (player's) trouble, not your PC's).

In any case, what difference is map on the display from the map you'd drawn on paper. You can still navigate. You know you need to go 10x N, 2x NW, 3x W to get from up staircase to down staircase. Your blind PC follows this path without any trouble. Why can't (s)he shoot things with pinpoint accuracy then?

Fun fact: (blessed?) amulet of the eye will enable automap with 1-tile range. I have a feeling that without this Soirana's endgame in zen monk would have been a complete nightmare.

11-15-2013 03:26 PM
Ancient Member
I must say, current game "logic" supports your statement about targeting a specific tile, but not about shooting that monster on that tile in his eye or heart or any part of its anatomy for that matter.

11-15-2013 03:57 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
I must say, current game "logic" supports your statement about targeting a specific tile, but not about shooting that monster on that tile in his eye or heart or any part of its anatomy for that matter.
Of course, when you bump into a immobile stone dungeon wall, you just clumsily bump into it, but when you bump into an immobile stone living wall, you expertly carve your name into it dual-wielding phase daggers.

Sarcasm aside, you can hit a snake, a bunny, a goblin and a great karmic wyrm with equal precision (barring monster DV) in melee, I don't see why you can't do it with missiles. Introduce a more severe to-hit penalty for missiles than melee - reasonable. Return it into unusable zone - I don't like it.

The game severely lacks in game logic in darkness, I don't understand why you bother with revealing the PC's position. The main interface screw of darkness/blindness (IMHO) is inability to track monsters around you and it does it perfectly (IMHO).

11-15-2013 04:08 PM
Ancient Member
Well, I wanted to add to my previous post, but was too late. I'll still say it here. We are dealing with above average melee combatant, marksman and spellcasters here with heightened senses. They can probably hit a goblin in the eye with an arrow even while blind just by listening to the breathing of the goblin can work out where it is and its eye is and pierce than eyeball and the small brain behind it with the arrow.

11-16-2013 08:13 AM
Ancient Member
Ok, unless someone can come up with a good reason why the map should not be revealed when a blind PC walks next to an previously undiscovered wall or door or features as the PC walks over them. By using his/her sense of touch the PC can most likely distuingish a door from a pool for example and using his/her memory remember what was there.

Also using his/her memory he/she can most always know where he/she is on the map, unless the PC was stumbling around aimlessly or teleported randomly. These are the only reasons that I can think of why the PC position should not be revealed and leads to the conundrum we have.

But not really, because a PC that is not blind knows where he is on the map even before scouting one tile of it. For this reason and mostly this reason it is reasonably acceptable if a blind PC also knows his position on the map.

Thus, all that has to be changed is the naming only the PC part and revealing the map adjacent to the PC and also find a new use for a blessed necklace of the eye worn by a blind PC.
The targeting reticle for missiles simply start at the position of the PC, you can even bring the health bar back.

For the amulet, I would like to suggest that it reveals items and monsters next to the PC, I expect some opposition to these suggestions, because of an existing challenge game. Thus here is my counter argument already, simply change the condition of the challenge that the PC may not wear a blessed necklace of the eye. At least now he doesn't have to draw the map himself or use a 3rd party program to do it for him.

11-20-2013 06:26 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Stingray1
Also using his/her memory he/she can most always know where he/she is on the map, unless the PC was stumbling around aimlessly or teleported randomly. These are the only reasons that I can think of why the PC position should not be revealed and leads to the conundrum we have.

But not really, because a PC that is not blind knows where he is on the map even before scouting one tile of it. For this reason and mostly this reason it is reasonably acceptable if a blind PC also knows his position on the map.
I agree. The thing with teleportation can be easily justified because it's magic. If you teleport to an unexplored area while not blind, you know anyway where you are relative to your previous location. I haven't played NetHack in a while, but IIRC the game always shows where you are when blind.

I hope that at least in ADOM II we will get unified behaviour with blindness, darkness and invisibility.

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