Skill tweaks
issueid=821 03-19-2012 07:56 PM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by Laukku: 56
Skill tweaks
Learning skills is too unrealistic

Right now any character can learn and master any skill by whacking monsters. Which not only is unrealistic but also makes the game more boring, as the player can access his favourite skills with any character. So what I'm suggesting:

* Get rid of the skill selection screen during character creation. Initial skills should be determined by race and class, like in ADOM. This step just adds a couple of boring extra minutes to character creation, and the huge list might scare away newbies just wanting to try the game out. Character creation should be fast and easy.
* Make it so that skills at level 0 are disabled and cannot be raised nor used. When you level up and select skills to raise, hide all disabled skills - the shorter list should make leveling up less of an headache, as you don't have to worry about fifty of them anymore. As a way of learning new skills, their level could be raised above 0 as rewards from NPCs, like how you learn Courage from the old barbarian in ADOM.
* Make so that skills can be raised outside of gaining an experience level by training them (again, like in ADOM). In ADOM II mechanics, training a skill could lower the skill cost for the next skill level, and when the cost reaches 0, the skill would advance to the next level. That way, you learn by doing. Which is what most skill systems should be based on.
Issue Details
Issue Number 821
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM II (formerly known as JADE)
Category Gameplay
Status Suggested
Priority 3
Suggested Version ADOM II 0.2.4
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 3
Votes against this feature 1
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




03-19-2012 10:54 PM
Junior Member
Maybe for some skills there could be trainers randomly generated in towns that could teach/train the skill. For example, coastal towns might have a chance of generating a Shipbuilding or Swimming trainer.

03-20-2012 08:21 AM
Junior Member
I also feel that the skill list is a bit cluttered, and it does seem a little unrealistic to be improving certain skills with no materials. However, I feel that this system is one of the cornerstones of ADOM II and helps to differentiate it from it's predecessor. As a way of finding a sort of in-between, I propose the following:

At character creation, certain skills based on race and class will have at least a point or two added. In addition to these skills, you begin with a number of skill points to add. You have a rather large list of skills to choose from. However, in order to add a skill which the PC does not possess, the first rank will cost significantly more than normal (and if your attribute penalty combined with the investment cost would totally prevent you from being capable of reaching at least 0 with all of your SP the skill is not even listed -- trollish barbarian probably won't start literate). Obtaining that first rank is costly for a reason, however, as it snatches up that skill permanently. That becomes important when you realize that the only skills which can be increased at level advancement are skills which you began the game with. In order to add additional skills to the level advancement list you must do one of two things: obtain training materials in the form of a manual (which, if present in your inventory will allow you to take on that skill at any time as if at the start of the game, but at the inflated cost) or speak to a trainer (who can raise their skill by 1. Doesn't cost SP but is extremely costly in gold).
Furthermore, to address the issue of the lack of realism in skill advancement I propose the following:

Race and profession will have a preference for certain skills which will be measured by a number, with this number representing a percentile (in the case of race -- profession is a different story). This is the percentage modifier these elements contribute to the total cost to raise a skill. For example, a troll may have a 160 for raising literacy meaning that trolls will contribute in increase of 160% to the cost of literacy increases.

Of course, that figure would need some further processing before it might have the honor of being called the final character preference for the literacy skill. Next we determine the preferences added into the equation by the primary and secondary professions. These preferences are slightly different than the race's in how they are represented. A profession-based preference is a smaller number representing the change
that a level in this class would add to the total, with a little added as a base figure, for additional stability. For example, a barbarian has a literacy skill preference of 4 and a base of 36, meaning that a single level as a barbarian will contribute 36+4=40% additional SP to the cost of raising literacy, at only level one. If you were a level 10 Barbarian, however, this increases to a 77% increase in cost. This calculation is then performed for each profession. The primary profession's modifier is doubled (so it holds the truest influence), then all are averaged together (being careful to add 1 to the divisor to compensate the doubling).

This number now can be added to the race's preference. In this example, a Troll who has obtained the first level of Barbarian requires 200% SP to raise literacy. We're not quite finished, however, because now we need to adjust the figure by applying the player's level of practice to the cost. As the game progresses, obtained skills can be applied. Sometimes this is manually done. Other times this is handled passively. In either case the frequency with which skills find use contributes to a bonus reduction to the cost to raise a skill. The maximum level of influence this may hold is total cost * 50%. The bonus does not last forever, of course; if you begin to neglect these skills that bonus will slowly whittle to nothing.

It is important at this point to mention that the floor for final cost would be 50%, with the ceiling 200%. This would prevent outlandishly unbalancing figures from sprouting up.

So to figure all that out we take...
Racial preference [variable 'a']
Professional Preference [variable 'b']
Skill Practice Bonus [variable 'c']
and quite simply, (a+b)*c = total cost
Which is to say...
(85 + 25) * 0.92 = 108% base cost (a Dwarven Fighter training Literacy with a small amount of practice)
or...
(70 + 25) * 0.78 = 90% base cost (a Dark Elven Fighter training literacy with a medium amount of practice)
or...
(65 + 0) * 0.56 = 50% base cost (because 50% is the cost-floor) (Grey Elven Monk with a ton of practice)
or...
(160 + 40) * 1.0 = 200% base cost (Trollish Barbarian who has not practiced a bit)
Sheesh... Anybody who actually read that deserves a medal. Hopefully, I've not made too many typos. It's very late here and I'm starting to get tired. ;)

Edit: Whoops, turns out I did make some typos... corrected.

03-20-2012 01:26 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Nearsighted
However, I feel that this system is one of the cornerstones of ADOM II and helps to differentiate it from it's predecessor. As a way of finding a sort of in-between, I propose the following:
Making the skill system more like ADOM is not my main motivation, but going more towards a "learning by doing" system. In fact, instead of a compromise I'd go even further and completely eliminate all skill selection screens (both on character creation and advancing and exp level).

03-20-2012 02:33 PM
Qui Qui is offline
Senior Member
Learning by doing might make boring repetitive scumming optimal play. "Chop all the trees! Swim in circles!"

In an unrelated note, I'd suggest removing from the selection board skills that aren't implemented yet. It would make the game more newbie-friendly.

03-20-2012 03:07 PM
Junior Member
@Laukku:
Making the skill system more like ADOM is not my main motivation, but going more towards a "learning by doing" system. In fact, instead of a compromise I'd go even further and completely eliminate all skill selection screens (both on character creation and advancing and exp level).
I don't believe a complete lack of selection screens is the way to go. Used sparingly, and well, they provide a reward for the player's hard work.

@Qui:
Learning by doing might make boring repetitive scumming optimal play. "Chop all the trees! Swim in circles!"
I get where you're coming from, but I still think that practice should provide a reduction to upgrade cost. Less labor-intensive ways of grinding your skills would accompany the system, theoretically.

In an unrelated note, I'd suggest removing from the selection board skills that aren't implemented yet. It would make the game more newbie-friendly.
Agreed on the newbie friendliness. However, it would be a hassle to take all that out just to put it back in at a later date. A better alternative might be to simply live with it for now, because once all the currently listed skills are finished It's likely that any new additions will be few and far enough between that each can get the full attention it deserves. (And thus we won't have to deal with a big list of broken skills again.)

03-20-2012 03:25 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Qui
Learning by doing might make boring repetitive scumming optimal play. "Chop all the trees! Swim in circles!"
Yep. I agree with the OP that "learn-by-doing" skill systems are the most satisfying, but they must be implemented with great care. When done right, they are probably the best systems, period. When done wrong (and quite a lot of games have done it wrong... Morrowind and Oblivion come to mind) it's a disaster that rewards absurd scumming and exploits.

After years of RPG gaming, my belief is that a hybrid between traditional level-based skill systems and "learn-by-doing" works best. Several different ways to do it:

Option 1. When and only when you get an experience level, you get a free skill advance in the 3-4 skills that you have used most (this can be combined with choosing skill advances).
Option 2. When and only when you get an experience level, you get a fixed number of skill advances, distributed between the skills you have used most (for example, if you have used fire magic 60% of the time, melee attacks 20% and swimming 20%, you would get 6 advances in fire magic, 2 in melee and 2 in swimming).
Option 3. Exercising a skill lowers the cost to increase it, but you still have to get a level to actually increase it.

03-20-2012 03:31 PM
Junior Member
@Al-Khwarizmi:

Option 3. Exercising a skill lowers the cost to increase it, but you still have to get a level to actually increase it.
If you read my above proposal you'll find this to be the case, with the one deviation being that in ADOM II the skill screen can be opened at any time.

03-20-2012 08:41 PM
Junior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
Option 1. When and only when you get an experience level, you get a free skill advance in the 3-4 skills that you have used most (this can be combined with choosing skill advances).
Option 2. When and only when you get an experience level, you get a fixed number of skill advances, distributed between the skills you have used most (for example, if you have used fire magic 60% of the time, melee attacks 20% and swimming 20%, you would get 6 advances in fire magic, 2 in melee and 2 in swimming).
Option 3. Exercising a skill lowers the cost to increase it, but you still have to get a level to actually increase it.
Those are some great suggestions. I like Option 1 the best, because is still gives you the fun of choosing stuff when you advance. Maybe a bit of option 2 with option 1 on top?

03-20-2012 08:46 PM
Junior Member
I personally enjoy choosing skills, I like the character creation process. By all means, make there an option to just roll up a character the easy way, but don't take a way the in-depth version!

To me, the 'classes' are no more than a starting affinity for certain abilities. A class really being a summary of what skills a character is good at.

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