Rivers, generalized
issueid=6 03-07-2008 09:19 AM
Member
Number of reported issues by Marek14: 15
Rivers, generalized
What could be done with rivers?

This is a general suggestions as to the behaviour of rivers. Rivers/lakes vere pretty basic in ADOM.

1. Depth.

I think that every square of water should have a certain depth. Depth would be measured in feet, so, for example, trolls could easily wade through a river that could drown a dwarf.

When a character enters the water, the depth would be compared to the character's height, to determine the effect:

Ankle-deep - some speed penalty, but insignificant (1-2 points). Can damage shoes.

Knee-deep - greater speed penalty. Apart from shoes, some types of body armor can be damaged too, like full plate mail.

Waist-deep - now the speed penalty is significant. Most types of body armor can be damaged. You have a chance to trip and fall in the water, exposing your whole inventory to it.

Chest-deep - at this point, the Swimming skill starts to be useful (you can't very well swim if the water is too shallow). Your backpack is submerged. If you trip and fall, you can take some drowning damage.

Neck-deep - if you can't swim, your progress will be very slow. Everything but your helmet is affected by water.

Over your head - if you can't swim, you can still sort of spring from the bottom and breathe, but it's hard - you can traverse the water in this way, but you might take some damage. Everything is affected by water.

Real deep - if you can't swim, you'll most likely drown here, period.

To make this easier, there could be UI mode which would color various depth levels of water with different colors, from green (shallow), to red (deep), so PC could find a good way to wade/swim through a river.

2. Monsters

Monsters would be depth-dependent (i.e. a kraken won't attack you in the shallows, and a giant crab won't pincer you if you can't see the bottom). There should be much more aquatic monsters, probably including tritons and mermaids with rust-proof equipment :) Coral comes in mind as a material.

3. Water walls

Another generic feature might be a part of dungeon that is magically flooded (magically, so the water won't spill to nearby squares). You could enter such place, but you'd take drowning damage, and you would be exposed to water (similar to Water dragon's lair in ADOM). Water monsters could lurk in these "walls".

4. Current
Rivers have currents. There would be some general direction of the current and its strength, defined just once for the floor. Every turn in the river, there is a check of your strength against the force of current and depth (in greater depth, the current acts on bigger part of your body). If you fail the check, you'll be washed away one square in the direction of the current.

4. Liquid types

Of course, once the infrastructure is in place, there can be really ANYTHING in that river, not necessarily water. Various things deal various types of damage and have various effects on your backpack.

Apart from normal water, there can be:

a) Seawater
Slightly more corrosive than normal water, allows generation of sea-type monsters.

b) Very cold water
Deals cold damage. You can encounter seals or penguins here.

c) Hot water
Deals heat damage. You can encounter giant tube worms here, the type that lives in volcanic vents.

d) Trick water
The river is normal water - except that it's tricky. It will always appear shallow, regardless on its real depth. And monsters in it are undetectable until you actually enter the water.

e) Plexiwater
Looks like normal water, but is actually solid. You can walk on the top without a problem. Unfortunately, it's still liquid for the monsters who live in it, who can surface and attack you, but you can't really fight back well.

f) Water of life
A magical river that invigorates everything in it. This rare type won't damage you or your equipment, it will actually heal your wounds. The problem is that the same applies to monsters living in it (mostly good creatures, like angelfish :) ). Even if you kill something in one hit, there is still a chance that the powerful healing magic will actually ressurect it. The magic is in the river, not water, so water taken out from this river will lose its properties.

g) Swamp water
If you take drowning damage in swamp water, there is a chance you'll be poisoned. It's also dark, making it hard to guess its depth.

h) Peat
Pulls you down. If you enter a region of very deep peat, Swimming skill won't save you... you'll need something else. Even if it's not that deep, it slows you down a lot.

i) Quicksand
Likewise. Can pull you down and drown you, slows down a lot. At least it doesn't damage the equipment.

j) Lava
Deals fire damage. Monsters like salamanders and fire elementals live in it.

k) Mud
Slows you down a lot, hard to guess depth.

l) Volcanic mud
Mud with bubbles. Like normal mud, but boiling-hot

m) Anti-lava
Found in weird inverted mountains known as anti-volcanos. Liquefied, freezingly cold rock.

n) Blood
River of blood full of vampiric creatures. Attempts to drain blood of every living creature submerged in it.

o) Liquid darkness
Cold, pure black liquid. What horrors are lurking in its depths?

p) Milk
A river in paradise setting. Satiating, and inhabited by fun-loving creatures. The worst you'll encounter here is a cookie monster.

q) Honey
Seriously, whose idea it was to make a river of honey flow through paradise? Anyone who bathed here must be wary of bears and bees.
Issue Details
Issue Number 6
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM II (formerly known as JADE)
Category Unknown
Status Suggested
Priority Unknown
Suggested Version Unknown
Implemented Version (none)
Votes for this feature 18
Votes against this feature 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




03-07-2008 11:51 AM
Junior Member
Would be great to have difference in abilities of rivers (or other waters). If most exotic types of "water" are added I'd like them to have known source or good explanation (like wtf, river of milk/blood/honey, why is it here?) and they should be really special and rare.

03-07-2008 12:27 PM
You've thought about water ALOT!

I'd love to see depth & current implemented as I have to say I'm not that keen on the way water works in ADOM.

There is definitely some mileage in having varying liquid types as well. Rather than having hot, cold, salt and swamp water, you could just have temperature, salt content and toxicity as variables for water, giving greater flexibility.

I'm all for rivers of blood and lava as well, but you may have gone a bit over board with the number of fluid types.

03-07-2008 01:00 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by electric_wizard
I'm all for rivers of blood and lava as well, but you may have gone a bit over board with the number of fluid types.
This is just a way I work. I have lots of ideas, but only limited ability to distinguish good ones from bad ones. So I suggest them all, then let other people choose the good ones.

As for rivers of milk and honey, I think they occur in some descriptions of Paradise, while rivers of blood and similar things (I forgot to mention poison, acid, no mentioning rivers of jelly which would randomly spawn jelly-type monsters of the same kind on their edges) are associated with hellish realms.

03-07-2008 04:53 PM
Junior Member
Great ideas, Marek. River currents sound exciting.

I don't mind a great host of liquid types, as long as most of them are appropriately rare.

It would be great for an exhausted character to stumble upon a river of milk or honey... Or just a river full of fish, really.

rust-proof equipment :) Coral comes in mind as a material
Isn't coral pretty brittle? But well, perhaps tritons and mermaids have "technologies" to beef it up.

03-07-2008 05:39 PM
Member
Oh, the idea was that the "non-traditional" liquids ARE rare, I just suggested a system that could plausibly support them. Plus, I thought funny the idea of a cookie monster living in the river of milk.

Coral might be brittle, but it's also pretty sharp, isn't it? And technology or magic might work with it.
Alternate water weapons might be parts of fish... like swords made of actual swordfishes. Or knuckles with embedded shark teeth.

03-07-2008 07:21 PM
Junior Member
I thought funny the idea of a cookie monster living in the river of milk
It may also mean cookies being available as a food item! :)

Coral might be brittle, but it's also pretty sharp, isn't it?
Good point. Untreated, it could make for very dangerous but un-durable weapons... interesting trade-off.

Alternate water weapons might be parts of fish...
Excellent idea. Also, weapons with sea urchin spines, and armour of sea turtle shell?

03-07-2008 10:58 PM
Senior Member
IMHO good ideas: depth, in-river monsters, current. I believe it would be worth while implementing these.

My thoughts:

Currents should not get the character stuck on the side of the map. More viscous fluids should have a stronger current (more likely to push) but slower current (does not push as frequently).
Seawater is out at sea, right? Not in a river. Liquid types I prefer: plain water and dirty water (similar to your trick water).
A fishing skill? Improved returns with use of a fishing rod/fishing net and different water types and depth.

Perhaps rivers may even have a blessed/uncursed/cursed status.

03-08-2008 12:14 AM
Junior Member
Wow, most of these are really interesting. I haven't played many rogue-likes, so I wonder how many are already out there. I love the idea of making bodies of water more detailed, because I love the idea of making the game world more detailed in general. Although these ideas would have to occur conservatively, or else you'd always have to worry about some bizarre characteristic of water every time you tried to ford it.

Edit: Also, if JADE's world is more than just a mountain range, many of these things would be very appropriate in places with more water.

03-08-2008 07:54 AM
Junior Member
1. Depth.
I like overal idea of water depth. But the thnig I don't like is that this would make all the rivers and lakes look like a rainbows.

To make this easier, there could be UI mode which would color various depth levels of water with different colors, from green (shallow), to red (deep), so PC could find a good way to wade/swim through a river.
This is what I meant by saying water would looks like a rainbow. Imho there could be water which you can cross without swimming and water where you need to swim. Might sound too simple and boring but at least it wouldn't make your eyes bleed everytime you see water in game.

2. Monsters
Good idea. Gets my support and it could be implemented to my simplified suggestion of water depth.

3. Water walls
I support.

4. Current
Might work depending how it would be implemented.

4. Liquid types
Some good suggestions here. At least you should think twice before jumping in water if you are at glacier or inside a volcano. Some other suggestions sounds a bit weird and some cases stupid but hey! This is just my opinion. Generally I think these water suggestions would be a fun thing to see in JADE.

03-08-2008 08:44 AM
Junior Member
I think that depth, water-specific monsters, current (you would be washed away if you have too little strength to withstand it) and *some* different liquid types is good idea. Some of those suggestions are over-the-top though, I wouldn't want Jade to turn into an everything-and-the-kitchen-sink kind of game either. :)

On seawater, I hope ocean travel will be available in Jade, for instance purchasing a ship. Cities should be more likely to generate near water and rivers too.

03-08-2008 01:22 PM
Senior Member
Idea of water depth looks just like it's in Dwarf Fortress now, but I think it's very good idea, and I'd like to see it implemented in Jade. On thing I don't like is different colors for squares with different depth. As someone said rivers would look like rainbow, which wouldn't be good.

Different types of rivers is also good idea, but I think that we don't really need plexiwater or milk rivers. But lava rivers in deep caverns(or near volcanoes) or swamps sounds neat.

03-08-2008 04:26 PM
Member
The "different colors for different depths" idea was meant to be strictly optional. In other words, it would be alternate display mode that you only switched on for the express purpose of crossing a river. At other times, you would switch it off, and the river would be blue again. Since every square can only have single color, switching on the depth information would mean you'd lose the ability to distinguish monsters by color.

I noticed some of you don't like the sheer variety of river types I suggest. They are just that - suggestions. They are, more than anything, examples of what should be possible to do with rivers. Some of them are more suitable for small pools (imagine the jelly pool, for example, a small pool in the middle of room that is filled with, say, gray slime, and which occasionally pops a gray ooze on the edge).

What this all means is that rivers and other liquid bodies should have also characteristics as "viscosity" (roughly, how much they slow the character down, also it's harder to swim in thicker stuff like mud), it should be possible to specify damage and equipment damage they cause, and even some special effects. That's the true purpose to the "river of honey" suggestion - it's a river that puts a lasting effect on anyone who wades through it until he manages to clean himself off.

03-08-2008 06:58 PM
Junior Member
You wouldn't have to use colors to distinguish between the river's depth, would you? You could just use, say, a - for shallow water, an = for medium-depth water, and a + for deep water, all blue.

03-09-2008 06:59 AM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by MattW
You wouldn't have to use colors to distinguish between the river's depth, would you? You could just use, say, a - for shallow water, an = for medium-depth water, and a + for deep water, all blue.
The idea is that when you're actually crossing the river, you are paying very good attention to the depth. Having deep (and therefore dangerous) squares visually "jump out" might be preferable for some players.

03-09-2008 08:56 AM
Member
I thought I had implemented most of the water types in my RL project, but you gave me some new ideas.

03-09-2008 10:14 AM
Ancient Member
Regarding depth, I suggest different shades of blue: From very light blue to very dark blue, representing shallow and deep water respectively. This seems to be already implemented, because different shades of blue can be seen in the sea in the JADE screenshots.

03-25-2008 03:12 AM
Senior Member
It looks like your wish has come true, at least partially. Did you see the JADE video? It looks like water has depth there. Looks good, and it looks like there's a lot of rivers criss-crossing the land. Wasn't able to tell if there was anything in the water though.

03-25-2008 12:41 PM
Member
I saw the video, but I didn't notice anything about depth. I only saw messages "You swim through the river." or "You swim through the water."

04-19-2008 09:35 PM
Member
Water depth is something I've thought about for a while.
I think ankle-deep shouldn't have any effects, except for boot damage - but as soon as you get knee-deep you should start going alot slower and waist-deep really slow. Chest-deep and above you should use your swimming skill.
I do not like the idea of tripping at any time. When you walk as slow as you do in water you don't usually trip alot and it would just be annoying. Crossing a river, carefully so that you won't wetten your spellbooks, then splash - random tripping and you're soaked.
Water walls isn't a very good idea, I prefer having rivers running through the dungeons.
I like the idea of swamp water - perhaps you only should be able to see depth until X, whichafter everything appears to be of X depth because it's so dark. Healing water is also a good idea, but plexiwater is absolutely not.
I vote for, anyhow.

04-19-2008 10:12 PM
Senior Member
With all those liquid types we definitely need rivers of beer! They can make your head spin quickly!!

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