Tone down spiked armor of chaos and terror a bit?
issueid=1410 12-10-2012 11:48 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by grobblewobble: 72
Tone down spiked armor of chaos and terror a bit?
it beats all existing artifacts by a mile

Although I did not yet manage to greater identify this armor, what I found out so far is simply jaw dropping.

40 PV, adds +10 str, =fire, -acid, -cold and weighs but 400 stones. It's like a red dragon moloch armor of giant strength. No other artifact in the game is nearly this good (with the possible exception of Justifier for paladins), unless there is some hidden drawback that I'm not aware of. I mean, I noticed the unholy aura effect, but that is hardly a real drawback, since you can just unequip the armor before walking into a shop. It arguably even counts as an extra advantage.

To give an idea: when I was crowned with this, the dwarven shopkeeper attacked me, then later went into a blind rage and *still* failed to hurt me. I also killed all the steel golems as a level 11 ck by simply holding down the arrow button, as if it was a threat room of orcs. No other low level character I had was ever able to do that, even troll barbarians with vanquisher have to be much more careful.

Now I do realize that there are severe penalties to getting crowned early on as a chaos knight, because it makes a happy end of the game impossible and because it forces you to remain C, which means many quests are unavailable etc. But even then, this seems a bit much. So what I suggest is either a slight nerf, or adding some drawback. Some other people I spoke suggested making it much heavier, for example.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1410
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Implemented
Priority 8
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 9
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 5
Votes against this feature 7
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




12-28-2012 08:24 PM
Senior Member
I'd rather see classes differ more by expanded and reworked class powers than their handling of certain legendary items

''toning down'' something that has a decently low chance to drop in any given game in the first place seems quite punishing. It's like 'toning down' amulets of life saving by incurring a To penalty even when blessed since 'you should be careful enough not to die, lol.'. I know artifacts follow different logic [indestructible, not-consumable] but they suffer from different things [weapon specializations, competing with different gear etc.] that additionally making them weaker just cause they dropped for the 'wrong character' [as if getting a Vanquisher from GV with a Beastfighter wasn't annoying enough!] kinda bad

12-28-2012 08:40 PM
Senior Member
The above argument is a good one. We should keep in mind that this is not a guaranteed item. I remember hearing about Rolf's axe's To bonus being toned down in gammas past, but that was because it was guaranteed to lawfuls who found the dwarven mystic.

12-28-2012 09:34 PM
Ancient Member
How thing being non guaranteed is afactor I fail to understand.

You really want 5%-ish games have easier win button, how about legendary wand which gives you lv50 and teleports straight to d50?

Cause I would not miss it all.

12-28-2012 09:45 PM
Senior Member
since ADOM already has 'easier win' buttons and 'toning down' some would probably require reworking entire game that is built around them

a WoWi with 4 charges is also a random drop and also an easier win button, will your next suggestion be 'toning down' WoWi to 1 charge max and draining 10 of random stat on wish? Indeed, many things can be 'toned down', but it's hard to say if that makes the game better or simply more frustrating. If 5 of every 100 winning characters had easier, relaxing runs, I don't think anyone would have a real problem with that.

(...)how about legendary wand which gives you lv50 and teleports straight to d50?
straw so thin I had to get a microscope. None of mentioned things gets any close to assuring a victory or making it as smooth as this - there are a lot of things that can ruin a character that has the mentioned artifact if he slacks on preparations for other things and no item will just 'finish the game for you' [my C- CK fell to lack of any healing and -Para while traversing ID while having both spiked armor and Vanquisher since mimics ain't slain by the latter and hiveminds can punch throught the latter] - actually, they can make winning harder if they succeed in making the player feel safe enough to make mistakes

since ADOM does not tolerate those

12-28-2012 10:17 PM
Ancient Member
Jesus, best laugh I had this week.

Continuing trolling on. How about fact that before prereleases Vanquisher was "class" artifact for being in crowning only group.

should I cite some old geezers saying in these times along the lines it was overpowered but okay since it was mainly for barbarians [and for non existing mellee necros too].

And just for record being stupid in game dows not make you better argumented on forums, lol.

12-28-2012 10:33 PM
Senior Member
No need to start calling each other names now. My argument, which I think coincides with plllizzz9's, is that this artifact, like other very powerful artifacts, does not "break the game". A powerful item does not mean your character is now playing in exploration mode. Soirana seems to be of the opinion that artifacts like these do indeed break the game by making it too easy. It'll be up to Thomas to make the call on that one.

12-28-2012 11:27 PM
Senior Member
Continuing trolling on. How about fact that before prereleases Vanquisher was "class" artifact for being in crowning only group.
like Cat's Claw

it's obvious they've been viewed as equally powerful by Thomas.

12-29-2012 12:50 AM
Senior Member
I think that it being "overpowered" for Chaos Knights is reasonable, since they're supposed to be a challenge class, which means that getting this artifact, for them, is really just rebalancing things a little towards being normal difficulty.

But for other classes, it should be toned down somehow. As such, it's my opinion that it should have a few properties that make it no worse for CKs, but worse for other classes. Kind of like how Justifier only deals half damage for non-Paladins. The spiked armor could perhaps only provide half the stated PV for non-CKs, or it could have the hidden trait of heavily abusing Willpower for non-CKs, or it could increase weight by 6x when worn for non-CKs, or some combination of these ideas and others.

It makes sense in terms of lore, too - this is an artifact originating from ChAoS and designed to advantage ChAoS beings, not regular people. The armor could be fortified by the corrupt soul of the CK (explaining PV difference), it could sap the willpower of those not of ChAoS (hence the willpower abuse - think The One Ring from Tolkien's series), it could bring the weight of ChAoS down on those who aren't themselves of ChAoS (hence the weight increase - also kind of like The One Ring's apparent heaviness).

12-29-2012 01:26 AM
Senior Member
I must admit I like the One Ring vibes suggested - something powerful with detriments that are both severe and possible to deal with with resource investition [burden/willpower loss] which would make the armor a drop that's not instantly-dismissed, yet used occassionally

12-29-2012 10:53 AM
Ancient Member
I think class artifacts that were in the crowning-only group were a bug, not a feature. All artifacts were supposed to be available from random drops, but something was wrong in the 1.1.1 code, which was fixed in 1.2.0p1 IIRC.

Personally the arguments by aerol and plllizzz9 have convinced me that this armor doesn't need nerfing, at least at the moment... if in the future we start to see a ton of YAVP's with "I found this armor and the game was a piece of cake", or people rerolling to be crowned with it, then maybe, but I really doubt that'll be the case.

About the idea of making the benefits CK-specific, I wouldn't really like to see the mechanic of artifacts being "attuned" to certain classes extended beyond Justifier. Character class is something that you choose at the beginning of the game and remains fixed. Therefore, getting artifacts that are obviously great for a specific class (or race) and crap (or at least much worse) for the others doesn't add interesting strategic decisions, but rather removes them. If you're a CK it's obvious you'll use a CK-attuned artifact, if you're a barbarian you'll just curse the RNG for giving you a CK-attuned artifact instead of a barbarian-attuned artifact. Not very exciting.

If the functionality of some artifacts is to be tied to something, I'd rather see it tied to things you can change in game. For example, the armor of chaos and terror could have a penalty (drain willpower or whatever) for characters who are not C-, or maybe for characters who are not corrupted enough. Those would be much more interesting because they force you to make a decision: shall I give my soul to ChAoS in order to be able to use this awesome armor to its fullest? If the penalty is according to the class, the only one making non-obvious decisions is the RNG.

12-29-2012 12:38 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
If the functionality of some artifacts is to be tied to something, I'd rather see it tied to things you can change in game. For example, the armor of chaos and terror could have a penalty (drain willpower or whatever) for characters who are not C-, or maybe for characters who are not corrupted enough. Those would be much more interesting because they force you to make a decision: shall I give my soul to ChAoS in order to be able to use this awesome armor to its fullest? If the penalty is according to the class, the only one making non-obvious decisions is the RNG.
That works quite well, actually - if you are nearly at maximum Chaos alignment (where CKs begin), spiked armor works as advertised. If you are still C-, but more than a certain amount away, you only get +35 PV, rather than the stated +40. If you are of Chaotic alignment, but not C-, you get +30 PV and +8 St. If you are of Neutral alignment, you get +20 PV and +5 St. If you are of Lawful alignment, you get +10 PV and no strength boost at all (or perhaps +1 or +2).

By having the armor give only +10 PV to Lawfuls, the armor becomes more comparable to red dragon scale mail, but with a few extra resistances and more negative effects on attack and DV. As such, as artifacts go, it's really not a great choice for most Lawful beings, except perhaps for some casters (who probably would have better choices available). For Neutrals, it remains tempting, but is nowhere near the level of the upper eschalons of artifacts. For chaotic beings, it becomes seriously worthy of consideration, and extremely chaotic beings (mostly CKs and some Necromancers) are almost certain to wear it.

12-30-2012 01:18 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
if in the future we start to see a ton of YAVP's with "I found this armor and the game was a piece of cake", or people rerolling to be crowned with it
Both are going to happen. Compare it to Nature's Companion, which is considered as a very good armor, right? If you replace it with this, you get..

- 8 dv
- 8 speed
- =lightning
+ 10 strength (some people spend a wish on GoGS for this alone)
+ 32 PV (!!)

Any argument based on C- chaos knights are flawed as long as converting to N remains as easy as it is now. Some people may refuse to convert because of style, but the game does become much easier when you do. And yes, finding this randomly as a barbarian > vanquisher.

Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
For example, the armor of chaos and terror could have a penalty (drain willpower or whatever) for characters who are not C-
Hmm... wearing it could draw your alignment toward chaotic like an amulet of chaos? I guess that would work.

01-09-2013 03:49 PM
The Creator
Tuned down very slightly. But not more. I don't believe in balancing and I also don't really believe that the armor simplifies the game too much.

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