It could be a more interesting tactical choice if stairs to a side level were located at some random position on the far end of the "U", giving players the choice between dashing through to be safe or entering the side level. Maybe it holds the artifact rabbit knife "Wazupdoc" or an artifact light crossbow "Vewwy Kwwyt"?

Yes, there's mapping and controlled teleport, but this would still likely result in more time spent on the level overall and more bunnies getting bred. It could be made another TP-difficult level like Darkforge if necessary.

Oh and by the way, in my last game to make it to that point, Bugs was killed by a random monster before I ever saw him. I can't say I was surprised. :-)

I've never got that far, to bunny level i mean, but from what i know about it, being spoiled, i think it has no place in this game. For me, ADOM is a very serious and hursh world and comical battle bunnies with Bugs don't fit in it, as dangerous as they might be.

Maybe when i actually get to the level i will change my opinion. And even if it remains, it doesn't really matter, since only TB's opinion matters in this case :).

Wouldn't you just kill him and *then* go to the side level?

Bunnies still spawn even if you kill him--I've had to wall off a horde of them before, after a few round trips between deep CoC and the shortcut.

Random idea: What if Bugs acted like an inverse cat lord? He starts out very strong, but with each bunny you kill, he gets weaker?

I agree. The idea definitely is not to have to wade through every challenge. If you find ways around them, that's fine. IMHO currently there really is a tendency to remove fun by removing shortcuts for folks who know what they are doing.

I like the idea of having the shortcut, but also having some benefit to not taking such a shortcut.

Like, say, having a reward granted to the PC if they can take out Bugs without teleporting, digging, or reading scrolls of vermin control. Perhaps their god can go "YOU HAVE IMPRESSED ME WITH YOUR HONOUR AND PATIENCE, MORTAL!" and a random artifact could materialise at the PC's feet. Or something along those lines.

On the more general topic of the request, I do like the idea of adjusting the order of the levels. But I also wonder about the positioning of the shortcut - it's supposed to provide a bypass route for early levels, but if placed above or below certain levels, it changes the requirements for movement. For instance, if the shortcut is below the EG, then the PC only needs to get past it once, and then they can use the shortcut from then on, whereas if the shortcut is above the EG, then moving back and forth means dealing with the EG every time (I'm assuming, here, that the PC isn't wearing the RotHK).

Similarly, if the shortcut is below the Wall of Flames, then the PC has to get the orb before being given access to the shortcut, whereas if it's above the Wall, the PC can use the shortcut, go to the tower, and use the shortcut again to get to the wall and pass it. Thus, these issues need to be considered.


One option could be to introduce a second shortcut, and move the first shortcut up to, say, just below the Water Temple. The second shortcut could perhaps lead back to an earlier level of the CoC... and be placed on the Bunny level, on the far side... and only appearing if the PC kills Bugs without a shortcut. The god could grant the PC access to a "divine shortcut" for their patience. This way, the player gets to decide between the challenge of dealing with the Bunnies and the challenge of dealing with traversals up and down the CoC.

Giving a reward for killing Bugs without teleporting, digging, etc. is encouraging grinding and tedium. I don't think that should ever be done, so I vote no to that.

The shortcut is already below the EG, so I'm confused as to what you are talking about. It currently blocks itself if the EG is alive.

Is this...bad? Why do you think we need to consider it - I don't see anything wrong with it, offhand.

It doesn't so much "encourage grinding and tedium", as provide a benefit to those who choose to take the path the level was originally designed for, while providing a different benefit for those who choose to take the quicker approach.

It's kind of like how killing more of your first kill gets you the Courage skill, but makes it harder to get to Filk. There are many other examples in the game of the player having to make a choice between the easier and the harder path. And sometimes, it's a bit grindy to take the harder path.

What I was saying is that, if we're working out the ideal arrangement of features in that part of the CoC, the impact of the position of the shortcut has to be considered. I wasn't asserting that either of the issues specifically arose in the arrangement proposed in the original RFE, but suggesting that we should ask ourselves which way to arrange the shortcuts.

I then proposed an idea that makes the Bunny level a little more interesting, while altering the situation with the shortcut.

Regarding "if the EG is alive", I'll admit to not recalling those details, as I generally don't try to get past the EG without the ring. So my mistake on that point.

Well, I'm confused because the original RFE obviously *does* consider the arrangement of the special places, including the shortcut. The only thing the shortcut does is save you time when you're a high level and you don't want to traipse through a bunch of low level stuff. Therefore, it makes great sense to place it before the Wall of Flames as nothing before the Wall of Flames is a challenge if you can do the TOEF. I thus think the RFE perfectly reasons its impact "will allow its usage for mid-game pre-ToEF characters and save them a lot of time and hassle to climb every time". If you have an objection, I'd love to here it, but I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.

The Bugs issue is detracting heavily from this RFE and should be moved to a forum post or another RFE.

I always felt that the casino often makes ToEF trivial - you will pretty much always find fireproof blankets, rings of ice, extra potions of water and missiles of dragon slaying in the casino, often with a red dragon scale mail.
Occasionally there is an artifact or two in there that can even further simplify ToEF.
Without the above items, or at least some of them, ToEF is a challenge even for lvl 20+ chars.
I agree with the shortcut being available before ToEF but casino should be a strictly post-fire orb location.

Random idea, why can't the shortcut and the EG be the same level? It would make perfect sense, you can't use it without his approval as he is standing RIGHT THERE.

To be honest, I think the original RFE was very well thought as it was and the additional discussion is not improving it.

The shortcut after the EG and before the wall of flames sounds perfectly fine to me: convenient for endgame characters that don't want to go through the early game levels again, convenient for a quick trip to the ToEF (at the point in the game where you go to the ToEF, the early game levels are not too relevant anymore either), and located after the eternal guardian so that he splits the midgame into two as suggested in the original RFE.

If not needing to pass the eternal guardian every time is seen as a balance problem (I don't really know, I tend to get the RotHK in my games and it has been long since the last time I faced him - due to accidental acid balling IIRC) then maybe the eternal guardian can be buffed in some other way.

That's what the RFE says - has someone said otherwise in the discussion? I don't see it, but yeah they're wrong.

I don't know why this keeps being brought up, but there is already a mechanic in place to force you to bypass the EG every time (the shortcut is blocked from reverse if he's alive). Presumably this would not change.

True, I forgot. Then I support even more strongly the original RFE as it is.

I quite like that.

Doesn't make a *huge* difference, but both stairs could be randomised a little bit so that it's not completely obvious each time. Or you could make some of the rock wall undiggable so there's a change that one blast of a wand of digging isn't enough.

Anyway I too like these changes. It spaces things out a bit more, and I love the idea of changing round the position of the shortcut.

TB likes it.