Will monsters (or NPCs in general) also be able to use stealth actively?

A kobold sneaking up on you while you're busy with more candid monsters... how fun ;-)

But I imagine additional AI would be required. Active stealth requires different movement than plain-view approaches, e.g. a weak monster might have to take the risk of going for it alone rather than rely on safety in numbers.

How about giving every tile special property, like "stealth-friendly"? Every tile could be rated from 1 to 5. Rating 5 would mean that PC skilled in stealth has great chance on entering stealth mode on this square(or remain in stealth while moving on it), and rating 1 would mean that no matter how skilled PC is, there are no chances on succesfully entering stealth(or chances are very slim). Of course squares with rating 5 will be those near walls, in complete darkness, and rating 1 would go to squares where light source is(just example).

Stealth should also be based on the shoes you're wearing - easier barefoot than wearing iron boots. Lighting conditions might effect it also (though I don't know if JADE employs different lighting conditions). Monsters should have different vulnerabilities to stealth based on a perception check. Higher level monsters and certain animals should be immune or more resistant.

Will the active/passive modes be completely automatical? It would be annoying to have my speed reduced because I can't turn stealth off. :P

[Stealth should have an active and a passive mode. The active mode provides a higher chance of success but reduces speed by one half or so. Active modes ends when combat starts.]

I'd go for a key to turn it on and off.
No need o turn it off in combat - if you are trying to sneak if here are people/monsters aware of you, you'd better stop or it's bad for you.
Compared to ADOM, the look command should maybe provide more information about if a monster is aware of your presence, suspicious, calm, etc.

[Higher level monsters and certain animals should be immune or more resistant.]
I wouldn't stretch this as far as immunity. How about magical means to both conceal yourself (Non-detecton spell, camouflage spell, as opposed to invisibility) as well as revealing sneaking characters (True sight spell, Clairvoyance, Necklace of the eye)

When saying certain monsters should be immune I was considering that not all depend on the traditional senses to detect creatures. Bats for instance rely on sonar, so stealth should make no difference to them. Trained bats could even be used as a detection system in castles to make guards aware of the approach of a thief... Magical creatures would have higher senses that would be harder to fool without high-powered magic (and in some cases magic means of invisility would make you *more* visible to magical creatures, much like Frodo putting on the ring actually makes him more visible to the Ringwraiths). In ADOM invisibility and darkness are far too powerful - it'd be nice to see creatures across the scale able to detect PCs relying on these.

Like it TB. Simple, but logical.

That would be interesting.
What about the armour type? Chain mails, plate mails would be incredibly noisy as well as cumbersome so only relying on the burden level would keep out this refinement (I would like it so that for example eternium plate mails for thieves would become a severe hindrance for their talents)

(I would like it so that for example eternium plate mails for thieves would become a severe hindrance for their talents)

True, and should it handicap thieves too much, I propose increasing the effectiveness of Backstab to compensate. I'd suggest ranged backstabbing effect (with a limit to short range, 2-5 tiles, depending on weapon, only).

The main problem with all Thief-like stealth modes in rougelike is the ASCII representation of the world. In FPP/TPP games like Thief there is no problem in showing items, people and light level or player's surroundings at the same time. I don't see the easy way to do it in ASCII game. The best soultion i can think of is using several background colors for different "stealthyness" of tile (something like line of sight 'H'ighlight in ADOM), but it would look fugly.

The other big problem would be hiding behind some objects in bright location. Again, in FPP/TPP game you can usually tell if you can hide beihnd something in a blink of an eye. In rougelike you'd have to use 'l'ook command and scroll all the way to "you can hide behind this item". Doable, but very tedious.

Another problem - how do you represent the line of sight of monsters, i.e. how can you tell if the monster is looking directly in your direction or the other way (except of more 'l'ooking)?

Don't get me wrong - I love Thief games, but i just can't think of interface for ThiefRL.

"Another problem - how do you represent the line of sight of monsters, i.e. how can you tell if the monster is looking directly in your direction or the other way (except of more 'l'ooking)?"

Good point. ADOM engine supports 360 degree vision for all beings, so I think JADE won't be different.
The only solution seem to be using the look command every step to check the -foo's awareness level. Not the most convenient way, but hey, stalking requires patience, so there.

I think that it shouldn't be a problem. "Stealthyness" property of every tile not necessary should be displayed to a player, it can be hidden as well. Of course this would create problems like "how can I know if I can hide on that tile or not?". Well, use imagination. It's pretty obvious that it's easier to hide in corner of dark room than on tile next to a fireplace. Stealth like that would be really nice feature, and I'd really like to see it in. Of course JADE isn't supossed to be ThiefRL, you don't really need to know if you can hide on certain tile or not - stealth should be nice addition, not an essence of gameplay.

The awareness level of monsters sounds like another thing that could be done well with switching the color schemes... I have to post a proper RFE about it.

As an aside, is it possible to change the name of this thread? It should be STEALTH improvements, not STEAL improvements...

A character in stealth mode shouldn't wear a multicoloured cloak. :)

Different brightness levels of floor symbols could represent the suitability for stealth.


"The -foo- suddenly glances at your direction!"
"The -foo- notices you!"

When you actively stealth the different awareness states of monsters could be represented by bolding, underlining, stroking out etc. the monster symbols.

The current 360 degree system could be given up. Pressing 4 for example would just turn the character counterclockwise. Alternatively pressing 4 would just make the character instantly face the direction in question. Your current direction could be shown by bolding the symbol you are facing for example.

A relatively old thread, I know, but I got some ideas while reading it.

Those look good...
But this one not. It would require switching to "active mode" every few turns which would be just annoying.

No dude, don't even think about it.

I think that the Invisibility spell shouldn't make you invisible, instead it would improve your stealth. Along with high stealth beeing very usefull.

For example, stealth ranging from 1 to 100. At 100 you are the same as invisible. If the active mode is implemented the bonus from the invisible spell would work even in the non-active mode. Ex. you have 15 stealth normally and 40 in active mode, with spell on you have 55 not active and 90 active. High natural stealth should also somehow improve your chance to dodge, dv, or give large penalties to monsters to hit.

I'm not in favor of an Invisibility spell that doesn't turn people invisible. Neither should high stealth make one invisible, or the equivalent.

I agree with Silfir.

However I think the effects of Invisibility should be expanded. Invisible monsters should be much harder to hit since you cannot locate the target accurately. Beings that do not rely on visible light for perception should sense invisible monsters. The monsters that "see" invisible should be the undead, snakes and bats to name but a few.

Monsters that don't see the invisible should behave differently when something invisible is present. Weak beings could have a chance to panic when attacked. Beings with high perception could be able to smell or hear the invisible (like many animals or PCs with very high Pe) and discover them that way.

Intelligence is also a factor. Perceiving something using the other senses is one thing, actually grasping that there is some invisible guy sneaking up on you requires some sort of knowledge many wild animals for instance could lack.

Beings with high perception will also notice the smaller indications of invisibility, like footsteps suddenly appearing on certain kinds of ground (grass, sand, snow, dirt - not solid rock), giving them a circumstance bonus in these cases.