Fair prerequisites for the cat lord quest
issueid=1114 07-04-2012 10:19 PM
Junior Member
Number of reported issues by moozooh: 17
Fair prerequisites for the cat lord quest
because they're not fair enough

There are numerous ways to deal with felines peacefully, including but not limited to: teleporting them away, pacifying, morphing, luring them into pre-generated traps, and pitting them against other enemies. That's more than enough to make the cat lord quest manageable. However, oftentimes when a player makes a conscious decision to fulfill the quest, they could still kill a feline before they even realized it. For example, by hitting a feline while in the dark, or killing an out-of-sight feline by a bolt bounce or an explosion area. Those things happen.

Since, as I understand, right now the cat lord's disposition towards the player depends entirely on the kill list entries, there is no way to fulfill this quest if you accidentally kill a feline that way. I don't think this is fair to a player who genuinely tries to do everything right. So, my suggestion is to change the disposition—basically, presume innocence on the part of the player based on the following criteria. It would require adding a "seen by player" flag to each generated feline, which would permanently flip to "1" whenever said feline enters the player's line of sight (i.e., when they see the "f").

1. If a feline has never entered the player's line of sight, its death—no matter the cause—should not void the quest;
2. if a feline has entered the line of sight at least once and is hostile towards the player, its death should void the quest but not aggravate the cat lord if it happens under the following conditions:
— the feline is in the dark;
— the feline is invisible;
— the feline is hit by a bolt bounce or an area effect at the moment when the player couldn't see the feline;
— the player is blind;
— the player staggers (such as from being stunned or confused).
Non-hostile felines should be displaced rather than hit.

In my opinion, this will not make the quest easier and will not give the player the ability to abuse it. Still, it'll provide them with certain deserved control over it. I also made it so that it was possible to void t
If a player has killed cats without voiding the quest, or forfeited the quest without aggravating the cat lord, they should receive less points for it, the character summary line about the quest should read differently and dialogue with the cat lord himself should have some differences.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1114
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Unknown
Status Rejected
Priority 6
Suggested Version Unknown
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 1
Votes against this feature 6
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




07-04-2012 10:54 PM
Joe Joe is offline
Senior Member
Problem is that it makes it absolutely too easy to keep the cat lord happy. All one has to do is cast invisibility or darkness before killing annoying cats around, or walk into a blinding trap, or other things you ruled out.
I think the unfairness of the quest is pretty nice. The cat lord just doesn't care about your good intentions. What it is all about is that his cats aren't dying, no matter your good or bad intentions!

07-04-2012 11:08 PM
Junior Member
Keeping the cat lord happy has never been a priority, getting the ring is. And you won't get it by doing any of the things you've listed.

07-04-2012 11:54 PM
Ancient Member
I think the quest is fine as it is now. Bolting a cat out of LOS or in the dark might be unfair, but many things in ADOM are.

07-05-2012 03:42 PM
Ancient Member
Anyway, if you have already screwed up the cat lord quest, having him hostile is a benefit because you want to kill him, don't you?

07-05-2012 04:51 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by Joe
Problem is that it makes it absolutely too easy to keep the cat lord happy. All one has to do is cast invisibility or darkness before killing annoying cats around, or walk into a blinding trap, or other things you ruled out.
I think the unfairness of the quest is pretty nice. The cat lord just doesn't care about your good intentions. What it is all about is that his cats aren't dying, no matter your good or bad intentions!
I agree with this.

07-05-2012 05:17 PM
Junior Member
Alright, how about just "1. If a feline has never entered the player's line of sight, its death—no matter the cause—should not void the quest"? Will that still seem annoyingly easy to you? It's not about intentions, it's about assuming your fault for cats dying. He doesn't care about cats killed by traps and other monsters.

Quote Originally Posted by anon123
I think the quest is fine as it is now. Bolting a cat out of LOS or in the dark might be unfair, but many things in ADOM are.
I swear, I'll probably never understand this defeatist logic: it's unfair, but it's alright because other things are also unfair.

I wonder if you go into bug report threads and post something like, "I'm fine with this bug, it doesn't need fixing. Sure, it might be an inconvenience to you, but there are many other bugs anyway."

07-05-2012 05:31 PM
Ancient Member
Nice to see a new face here, hi moozooh.

I'm undecided on point 1. If it would be completely down to bad luck, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But a very careful player who really likes to please the catlord can usually avoid those causes. You can light your torch before entering darkness, for example, or avoid the area for the time being. And with bolt spells, a careful player can greatly reduce the probability of shooting things outside of their LoS (tactical manouevering, casting farsight). Difficult? Yes, but since this quest is entirely optional, that's ok.

edit: for darkness there is also the workaround of dual wielding shields (which makes sure you don't attack anything)

07-05-2012 05:42 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
I'm undecided on point 1. If it would be completely down to bad luck, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But a very careful player who really likes to please the catlord can usually avoid those causes. You can light your torch before entering darkness, for example, or avoid the area for the time being. And with bolt spells, a careful player can greatly reduce the probability of shooting things outside of their LoS (tactical manouevering, casting farsight). Difficult? Yes, but since this quest is entirely optional, that's ok.
Yeah, in fact I do what you say with all my wizard characters. If I have farsight or torches, I use them. If I don't have enough LOS to see the full trajectory of my bolts, I only use them if they are going to hit a wall I can see, or I bounce them diagonally in corridors to decrease the range. Of course, sometimes I get into a tight situation and I need to use bolts without seeing where they will end up, but that's just part of the difficulty of the quest. It's perfectly possible to avoid inadvertently killing cats and not leave it to luck, but one has to make tradeoffs and the game may get harder. I like that.

07-05-2012 06:21 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by moozooh
Alright, how about just "1. If a feline has never entered the player's line of sight, its death—no matter the cause—should not void the quest"? Will that still seem annoyingly easy to you? It's not about intentions, it's about assuming your fault for cats dying. He doesn't care about cats killed by traps and other monsters.

I swear, I'll probably never understand this defeatist logic: it's unfair, but it's alright because other things are also unfair.

I wonder if you go into bug report threads and post something like, "I'm fine with this bug, it doesn't need fixing. Sure, it might be an inconvenience to you, but there are many other bugs anyway."
Well, if you're intentionally shooting bolts at things you can't see, I'd still say that is your fault, TBH. I mean, if you hit a shopkeeper outside your line of sight, he's still going to come and kill you for it. If you kill a dwarven child out of LOS in dwarftown, the inhabitants are still gonna be pissed off. If you are concerned about such things, you can choose not to use that spell in that situation. The cat quest can be completed fairly easily with a bit of care and diligence. It doesn't really require much in the way of luck, except maybe right at the very beginning of the game.

07-06-2012 02:05 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by moozooh
I wonder if you go into bug report threads and post something like, "I'm fine with this bug, it doesn't need fixing. Sure, it might be an inconvenience to you, but there are many other bugs anyway."
No, and I hope my activity on the bug tracker shows otherwise :)

My thoughts on this are the same as Jelly posted above. I'd think otherwise if completing the cat quest was necessary to win the game, but it's not. And getting the ring feels sweeter when you know you passed the "test" of fulfilling the oh so unfair requirements ;)

12-11-2012 02:37 PM
The Creator
I agree with all people not wanting to fix the quest as it is not necessary to solve the quest to win the game. Unfairness only exists when you are required to do some things and just can't.

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