[Balance] Make teleport control harder to acquire
issueid=1206 08-24-2012 04:45 PM
LFk LFk is offline
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by LFk: 1
[Balance] Make teleport control harder to acquire
If you find one blink dog, you've found 'em all.

EDIT: Augh! I meant to make this a "Feature" but the option is greyed out now.

I recently had a discussion which I stepped out of due to improper forum to be talking about it, so I'll continue it here.

Teleportation is an overpowered feature, this much is hard to argue with. However, there are 3 facets that make it so, which is the spell Teleport, the ability to control it, and the huge well of PP (their HP) that casters have.

I'm still against hard class-balance, but it wouldn't be bad to tweak some mechanics to avoid making teleportation into a walk replacement (often, anyway).

So my thesis: Teleport control intrinsic is entirely too common. If you find a single blink dog, which you typically do in one of the VD/DD, PC, and UD, you can just trigger his spawns and give yourself an extremely high chance of getting a corpse.

If teleport CONTROL was harder to get, teleport would be somewhat less useful, and certainly less convenient. Combined with the idea of making HP casting more punishing, so one can't just spam the random teleport until the desired result is acquired, this would make teleport much less of a common walk replacement for caster classes.

- Make blink dog *summons* unable to drop a corpse / or make Blink Dogs only drop a corpse if killed prior to casting summon.
- Make eating the blink dog corpse grant a small chance of granting TCtrl, ~10%.
- Make blink dogs no longer summon.

This would force PCs to use the ring/ammy, which aren't guaranteed, or turn to pool sipping, which can be dangerous on top of non-guaranteed.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1206
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category Windows 7
Status Implemented
Priority 7
Suggested Version ADOM 1.1.1
Implemented Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 17
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




06-20-2013 05:34 PM
Junior Member
Here are a few possibilities.

Make eating the corpse cause dooming. Possibly too easy long term but it makes early game scumming much riskier.

Eating the corpse has other effects. Lowered speed ("You understand your place in the world and are unwilling to move from it"), lowered perception because you are distracted by sights from the ethereal realm. Possibly combined with a chance you do not get control at all.

A guaranteed autocursing ring with teleport control at the bottom of rift instead of WBre item perhaps? Then reduce the chance of getting blink dog corpses. You can have control but you have to give up an item slot to do it.

Alternatively, and moving away from D&D, how about increasing the chance of drops but making them blink cats instead. Nasty dilemma if you are not a bard.

Trickier to implement but give them item removal powers. "The blink dog touches your foo. The foo vanishes". Maybe the item re-appears somewhere on the same level.

Lower Guth'Alak's attitude towards you for each dog killed. If it is lowered too much then no unicorn quest for you. Possibly too much like kitty karma.

Massive rewrite: eating a corpse takes you to ethereal realm. Single level dungeon with no teleport and one set of downstairs. Fairly high DL.

06-20-2013 08:04 PM
Member
I strongly feel that the people voting to nerf teleport control only play casters. Having earlyísh teleport control is extremely valuable for melee players and not even remotely overpowered, especially now that DarkForge raids are fixed. As a melee player, you're given a wand with a few chances to get you out of a few seriously sticky situations and perhaps a few floors of the ToEF. That's reasonable. That's super reasonable.

Having the corpse cause dooming? Are you kidding me?! This just punishes non-scummy players. I rarely have enough piety to get crowned until right-before the ToEF or after I get into the Casino. Everyone knows the game is basically done once you finish the ToEF, so this is a pretty outrageous suggestion in my opinion.

The only thing I can imagine might be overpowered about teleport control is the overuse of it by casters. Address that issue. I don't play casters because I think they're overpowered, so I'm not really a big fan of balancing casters by any other means other than balancing casters! Think of the melee players, and don't try to balance what isn't unbalanced.

A guaranteed autocursing ring with teleport control at the bottom of rift instead of WBre item perhaps?
I don't even what the... jesus.

06-20-2013 09:43 PM
Ancient Member
Casters are that, they should get full benefit from spells. Now if a non-casting character goes to all the effort of learning this spell he can't use it all the time either.

A farmer was able to slay the arch enemy of an ancient karmic wyrm and none of its children due to the full use of teleportation. He had to go to great lengths to be able to do this( in pre 1, when it was even more difficult to learn spells ). As it is now, this might not be possible anymore.

06-20-2013 10:02 PM
Ancient Member
I think the current increase in PP from teleport spells is fine. Added nerfs are a bit excessive IMHO.

06-20-2013 10:15 PM
Ancient Member
I agree with JellySlayer. With the nerf to casting cost of the spell + nerf to HP casting (so that casting cost is actually relevant) it's now fine. One more resource that a wizard can use but not abuse.

06-20-2013 10:33 PM
Ancient Member
Hooray for scrolls of power and potions of booze. I hate you guys. :p I don't think my characters were more powerful with the old cost, just more convenienced. Well, atleast I'm not wasting a wish on concentration that much anymore and picking great booklearner that often. Variety is cool.

06-20-2013 11:55 PM
Ancient Member
This problem has been solved and very much appropriately - PP cost of TP scales with DL, which eliminates most 'abuse' or whatever you want to call it. BD corpses were never the problem.

06-21-2013 07:20 AM
Ancient Member
Well, not entirely. I still get teleportitis as soon as I can control and wear that helm and zap that wand or cast the spell if teleportitis doesn't kick in soon enough. Most often skipping 80% of explored levels.

06-30-2013 12:18 PM
Member
I think this change was supposed to be about stopping casters from abusing teleport. Unintentionally, this change has instead primarily and most harshly affected non-casters who manage to scrape together the learning, literacy, concentration, and mana required to do some rudimentary spell casting. Melee types will NOT want to do HP casting, so they've pretty much got enough PP for one casting of it if they're lucky.

I think the best solution is to put Teleport casting PP back to where it was for most classes, but have caster classes have to pay more. Wizards get a huge discount on PP costs. Perhaps make teleport exempt from this discount. Not sure how to handle the other classes, but this change nerfed the wrong classes. Melee didn't need their teleport abilities nerfed. Recently came to this hard realization when I was trying to do the ToEF on my duelist.

06-30-2013 12:34 PM
Ancient Member
Melee characters can still use teleport spells for emergencies. Casters can't use teleport as a substitute for walking (which they could in 1.1.1). I think this is a pretty good balance.

06-30-2013 12:39 PM
Member
Making the casting cost uneven doesn't seem like it would be a workable case. Instead, how about putting a 'timer' on teleporting? Make it so you can only teleport once per <insert certain number of turns here>. For non-casters, it would take them however long it needs to get enough PP. For casters, who already *have* the PP, it would take them... however long te timer is on casting it.

Teleportitis could be excempt from this; that way, getting tp-itis would still be a way you can *possibly* 'blink' yourself around a little faster, but with more randomness.

06-30-2013 04:48 PM
Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
Melee characters can still use teleport spells for emergencies. Casters can't use teleport as a substitute for walking (which they could in 1.1.1). I think this is a pretty good balance.
The effectiveness is blunted to an alarming degree. Unless you're playing a Mist Elf, I think it's unlikely you're going to have the PP to cast teleport at all pre-ToEF unless you want to HP cast. My Mist Elf duelist had a very high Mana score (25+) could only cast it once while I was doing the ToEF. The effectiveness of the teleport spell for getting out of sticky situations is dramatically reduced when you don't have at least two but preferably three attempts. Imagine being on a cavernous level, surrounded by a ton of nasty mobs on a level you've already explored. You try to teleport yourself to the down staircase to avoid the mob. "That is impossible. Suddenly you're standing somewhere else." Now you're even further away from the staircase and even deeper in shit. And you've got no more castings, better hope you have castings in that wand. Before I'd be able to have two or three shots at teleporting, and I'd be able to quickly make my way across already explored levels of the ToEF. No more. It's a serious, serious handicap.

Anyway, this whole thread was centered around trying to balance casters. This change ended up simply nerfing non-casters more than anything. I think that's a problem. Did ADOM really need to make melee classes even more underpowered relative to casters?

06-30-2013 05:51 PM
Ancient Member
The change nerfed casters far more severely than non-casters. Most non-casters don't learn many spells and books are rare enough that they're somewhat unlikely to find one. A post ToEF wizard used to have a large enough battery to literally teleport everywhere instead of walking. A caster could finish the game in a quarter the number of turns as the fastest melee character solely because of this spell.

The effectiveness of teleport in emergency situations has not been blunted--if you don't have much PP, you can always HPCast. There's also wands and scrolls.

06-30-2013 07:22 PM
Ancient Member
This change didn't nerf non-casters AT ALL; I have no idea what you're talking about. It's nearly impossible for most non-casters to even learn the teleport spell (it's a very difficult spell!) unless they're an elf. There're wands of teleport and scrolls of teleportation that allow non-casters to teleport on demand when it's needed, which is what the teleport ability should be.

06-30-2013 07:35 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta
This change didn't nerf non-casters AT ALL; I have no idea what you're talking about. It's nearly impossible for most non-casters to even learn the teleport spell (it's a very difficult spell!) unless they're an elf.
Teleportation, Farsight and Strenght of Atlas are one of the easiest spells of the game.

Farsight is easiest (even Light/Darkness are slightly harder to learn), Strength of Atlas is easier then Cure Light Wounds, and Teleportation equals Burning Hands in difficulty. _Any_ bolt spell is harder to learn than Teleportation.

Given that those 3 spells are probably the only one that could make sense for fighter classes... I'd say that this is probably intended. Bless is really easy too, but it could be justified without Creator intervention - after all, blessing someone is easier that healing/creating damaging bolts, every priest should be able to do it, and effects are not really that great.

ps - it should be in spoiler tag, but i didnt found any suitable buttons in editor. sorry!

06-30-2013 08:42 PM
Member
The effectiveness of teleport in emergency situations has not been blunted--if you don't have much PP, you can always HPCast.
No fighter in their right mind would contemplate HP casting unless the only alternative was death since it now abuses Wi and To. The effectiveness has been blunted. I just experienced it first hand! Instead of being able to teleport twice, I was able to only teleport once (but it failed). It literally just happened to me the other day. I didn't die, but it handicapped me significantly. I had to stick around a cavernous level and fight a Master Lich who spawned a bunch of stat draining undead while contending with jellies, a mimic, and a cat. If I had a second teleport, things would have been made a lot simpler.

That's not to say that there couldn't have been other ways to get out of the situation. I managed to make the best of the situation (PoEx, AoFA, Wand of Fireballs, Arrows of Undead Slaying, etc.) The point is that this change took away my best option, i.e., it significantly handicapped my PC. The problem with only being able to teleport once is that it's not infrequent for you to fail because some monster is standing on the square. The ability to teleport twice in succession versus the ability to cast teleport only once is a very big difference.

Being able to teleport instead of walk is convenient for wizards and helps them avoid some corruption. However, letting them only do this half as much is a minor inconvenience. They're still going to do it. It's a minor nerf at best. The wizards I played were rarely using up any significant portion of their mana teleporting anyway. This change affects melee PCs who have some small proficiency in magic far, far harder than it does casters. As usual, melee gets the short end of the stick.

This change didn't nerf non-casters AT ALL; I have no idea what you're talking about.
My mist elf duelist got hundreds of castings of teleport after eating the oracle, drinking some PoGA, wearing +Le gear, and drinking a potion of boost learning while reading from a blessed Spellbook of Teleport. Unfortunately even with a Mana stat of 25+ he could only manage to cast teleport once. I felt pretty intensely nerfed, which is why I made this post.

books are rare enough that they're somewhat unlikely to find one
If I recall correctly there's a guaranteed Spellbook of Teleport from Khelly. That's where I usually get mine.

06-30-2013 10:44 PM
Ancient Member
If I recall correctly there's a guaranteed Spellbook of Teleport from Khelly. That's where I usually get mine.
Right, so teleport spellbooks are more rare than wishes.

My mist elf duelist got hundreds of castings of teleport after eating the oracle, drinking some PoGA, wearing +Le gear, and drinking a potion of boost learning while reading from a blessed Spellbook of Teleport. Unfortunately even with a Mana stat of 25+ he could only manage to cast teleport once. I felt pretty intensely nerfed, which is why I made this post.
That's fairly extraordinary lengths for a character with concentration and spell learning bonuses and very high Le.

06-30-2013 11:13 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by sytar6
I think the best solution is to put Teleport casting PP back to where it was for most classes, but have caster classes have to pay more.
So then, having caster classes being actually worse at casting something than non-casting classes? That doesn't make much sense to me.

To be honest, I think this nerf is fine as it is. A fighter or a duelist isn't supposed to go around casting teleport spells left and right. There is a guaranteed wand of teleport for emergencies, and if a melee character really really wants to cast teleport, he can. It will just take some effort.

The problem in previous versions was that teleport is obviously a very powerful spell and it had the PP cost of a weak spell. Now it's balanced. Melee characters will have a hard time trying to cast it, just like with other powerful spells like acid ball or petrification. And that's the way it should be.

06-30-2013 11:39 PM
Member
Actually, considering this is already marked as 'Implimented, may I make the suggestion of either A) making an RFE for the change, or B) making a thread in the foprum if you're just wanting discussions?

07-01-2013 01:28 AM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Teleportation, Farsight and Strenght of Atlas are one of the easiest spells of the game.
And with the change to how literacy, etc. works, they've all become much harder to learn.

Quote Originally Posted by systar6
My mist elf duelist got hundreds of castings of teleport after eating the oracle, drinking some PoGA, wearing +Le gear, and drinking a potion of boost learning while reading from a blessed Spellbook of Teleport. Unfortunately even with a Mana stat of 25+ he could only manage to cast teleport once. I felt pretty intensely nerfed, which is why I made this post.
As JellySlayer notes, you are quite fortunate. For one, you're a Mist Elf Duelist which means two things: not hard to max Literacy AND double trained in Concentration - also not hard to max (plus a high Le/Le max). The Concentration skill is only offered racially of mist elves, and by non-caster class you can only get it from archer/duelist/healer/monk/paladin/weaponsmith. I played through the game with a Mist Elf Beastfighter, and I had an incredibly tough time learning spells; I managed to learn Teleport only after getting above level 40 on D:50 partially because I needed the level bonus, but also partially because it took a long time to finish maxing concentration (and I only lucked into a TP book/maxed literacy by visiting the library - you are seriously underestimating its rareness for non-caster classes). Your advantage in learning spells is so far from the typical non-caster that it isn't even worth comparing.

More importantly, I don't think I've ever had a problem with running out of teleports in a game. I don't really have any sympathy that you couldn't cast teleport twice. There's a guaranteed wand of teleport in the VDDL that solves all your teleporting problems for the rest of the game. You can get enough booze to last you through the whole game fairly quickly. I've done this basically every game I play (since I rarely play casters anymore) and I've almost never had a problem.

P.S. Outside of D:50 and the Casino, it is extremely rare (even on cavernous levels) to not be able to teleport due to a monster. It is not nearly as common as you claim.

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