Off-topic posts are best ignored instead of further derailing the whole thread.

Then we are at an impasse. I don't know where this expectation comes from or how you justify it. You seem to assume this to be a self-evident stance and it's really anything but.

ADOM isn't, for instance, Diablo II, where you have to specialize in a very narrow set of skills to be able to compete at higher difficulty levels. ADOM is all about options; realizing what they are and making the most of them. Deliberately ignoring a whole slew of potential options and still expecting to surpass any and all optional challenges the game offers seems misguided to me.

This is not a spoiler cause it's in the Manual:

"MANA
This attribute describes the luck of your character, his attunement to the forces of magic and his resistance to magic. Mana is a prime determinant for magical power. "

Although this probably doesn't help some characters with low Mana, but even casting light or darkness trains it a bit or using a wand of wonder.

Well, I assume you read my whole post, of which you quoted part, Silfir, but I think I've made my reasoning perfectly clear. I don't think ADOM should have situations where your options are artificially limited to a severe extent such that you are forced to rely on non-melee (or non-magic, or non-missiles) to overcome an obstacle (kill a monster). I think this is perfectly reasonable and *exactly* what ADOM is all about. I am definitively NOT saying that relying on a pure* build should be in any way easy, nor the easiest way, (although it currently is for missiles & magic and you continually argue that that is fine, so I have a lot of trouble taking you seriously here), but that ADOM should, in some manner, include a method of overcoming nearly an obstacle if you have the right preparation (items). Of course, there is no guarantee that the right preparation will be available in a given game, but this principle is exemplified in a number of items the game has to offer, and I think my position is very justified.

*again, includes wands

More specifically from what Stingray1 wrote:




With regards to missiles specifically, I will argue that in many respects missile and melee are identical. In a significant portion of cases where the PC is actually in danger (including greater vaults, among other things), it is impossible to avoid using missiles in melee range anyway. So the disadvantages that pertain to being in melee range--paralysis, aging, stat drains, etc.--apply equally well to missile characters as melee ones. Try clearing a GUV with a non-archer using only missiles. You're going to have exactly the same problems as a melee character, and will run out of missiles before you've managed to kill a third of the undead, and will still have your stats damaged just as badly. In some situations, yes, you can take advantage of the distance (as long as the monsters are slower than you), but in many you can't. In melee range, the only monsters that missiles have a direct advantage over melee are karmics, but, conversely, missiles can't deal with dopplegangers. Missiles are also limited by supply, much more vulnerable to destruction (both in terms of shooting, and the fact that almost all missiles and missile launchers are made of wood or iron), and generally do less damage than melee (especially since missiles are rarely worth blessing). In fact, one of the most challenging areas in the game--the ToEF--is quite tricky to do with all missiles.

The rest of the post did nothing to substantiate the claim that all optional challenges in the game should be possible with a pure melee character. Just named an existing item that happens to help with a different problem. You could also name amulets of free action if you really want to, I guess (paralyzation being another of the effects that PCs can only suffer in melee range). If I understand your argument correctly, it's that the existence of protective items for some of the dangers associated with melee range are evidence of an underlying design principle that there should be protective items for all dangers associated with melee range. I don't agree that such a principle exists or should be created, and in any case there will always be creatures in the game that are just a terrible idea to melee; killer bugs, greater molochs, eternium golems and such. Do we need a protective item against critical hits, too? Of course you can pump a character far enough that they can take them anyway - but the same can be said for stat drains. In fact, you don't need to pump characters very hard because stat drains don't usually kill anyone or even get bad enough to cry a river about.

As for missiles and magic, it's the simplest thing: Would you rather be

a) three meters away from a lion while wielding a sword
b) three hundred meters away from a lion while wielding a gun?

The world of ADOM is full of dreadful monsters with terrifying strength, sharp claws and poisonous bites. Killing them from a distance, if you can, is just sensible. And everyone can. You keep insisting that we specifically accomodate a "pure melee" build when the game simply wasn't designed to place any restriction like that on the characters, except perhaps for starting some of them with lower dexterity (which doesn't keep them from becoming very lethal with ranged weapons with not too much investment). That's the point I keep trying to make when I refer to games such as Diablo II, and which I think cycil was trying (rudely) to make before; ADOM isn't a game about "pure", straightforward builds. To keep going with the lion analogy, sensible ADOM characters carry both a sword and a gun; while they prefer b) they can also deal with a), but they should expect a harder time of it and possibly permanent injury and death. An ADOM character using a "pure melee build" is someone who insisted on going on a lion hunt armed only with a sword even though he was offered a hundred guns and thousands of bullets to practice with. You can admire the guy's dedication, but ultimately he's an idiot.

By the way, including wands in your definition of a "pure" melee build and excluding both missiles or learned spell magic just doesn't make a lick of sense. Wands contain spells, and you can use them from a distance. You're either a purist or you aren't. I could call myself a "pure animal lover, except I hate dogs and regularly kick them in their ugly faces" and it would make the same lack of sense.

We don't disagree, I think, that there could and should be more creatures that are dangerous from a distance, perhaps even more dangerous than close up. Right now, not enough of those exist. But they should be added, and exist alongside the creatures that are painful in melee. Deadly ranged attacks by monsters need to be easier to resist, though, because they're also much harder to successfully evade. That's why there are no ranged stat drains that I'm aware of, nor should there be.

Also, deadly ranged attacks cause as much (if not more) trouble for melee characters anyway. A melee character has to take multiple hits while closing the distance before they can attack; an archer or wizard can start attacking right away.

JS: While I agree with the gist of your post (and I find it even more reason to add this to the amulet of protection from undead), it's also not strictly true. With some movement reduction or teleport [the wand], it is fairly easy to use missiles outside of melee range (I cleared most of D:50 & the Earth Temple recently with missiles using mainly movement reduction and a bit of teleport). That is, if you really want to, for dangerous mobs. Missiles aren't that hard to make for non-archers, and there are certainly plenty of them in-game (and plenty of slaying beyond the casino); same for the launchers as any short bow will easily serve you the entire game if you want, and there are plenty of them available from kobolds or barbarians.

I also disagree that missiles do less damage than melee--certainly, the only reason I was able to clear D:50 & the Earth Temple recently was with a little help from some slaying ammo that took out balors/stone grues/earth elementals in 3-4 hits. In melee, it would have taken me forever--so there again is another advantage: the mobs that can really hurt you in melee [which, with some notable exceptions like TOEF, do come after the casino, for the most part, so you have plenty of slaying ammo] can generally be disposed of faster with missiles. Even using regular old missiles works fine for most monsters considering the number of squares they have to travel.

(also that is no longer true of TOEF since there is a guaranteed ring of ice. I'd take ACW blasts or Fire Giant King rocks over fighting them in melee any day)

Silfir: I think you are missing my point. One of ADOM's core principles, for me, is that there is a way to overcome any problem with all 'approaches' (defined here as melee, magic & missiles), although certainly choosing the same approach all the time is an extremely poor choice and likely to get you killed. Thus, I think what is central to ADOM is not limiting your choice of gameplay, which I find to be, conceptually, the polar opposite of "restricting" you to one playstyle or another, as you seem to think I am talking about. Whether one chooses to restrict one's self to one playstyle, well that's the players choice. There is really only one notable exception to this for missiles [aside from what we are talking about here], and that is dopplegangers. There are protective measures for meleeing (or what have you) nearly everything in the game--not just "some" [there is even a protective method for meleeing dopplegangers without being confused!]. (I totally disagree about stat drains)

(Sidenote: Those are actually GREAT examples of things that are very, very possible to defeat toe-to-toe in melee with the proper preparations or knowledge. That's not to say it smart or without its risks [D:48 greater claw bug - 1; gnome barbarian - 0], but it is very much a choice you can make.)

Btw, my definition of a pure build includes wands for missile & magic users as well, and I think that this is a perfectly sensible definition. They are one of the ways ADOM offers you to disable things you might not be able to handle, or offer a way to escape. Shall I suddenly exclude disabling potions as well? It's not as obvious, but it certainly wouldn't fit with a purely melee or missile or magic based build. The only reason I clarify for wands is that I believe the assumption I am talking about would exclude them. (I would personally exclude wands that actually cause damage, of course)

Also, btw, I don't think there should be creatures that are dangerous from a distance; it is exactly the opposite of what I want because all it does is privilege those at range. What I want to see are interesting effects like a creature reflecting a bolt spell back at you, a creature who shoots your own arrows back at you, causing you to be poisoned: not those exactly, but those kind of interesting effects. The last thing I want to see is the current creatures that are painful in melee removed, either.

And back to the topic at hand: I think you should again consider what I am proposing. An amulet of protection from undead (which is actually quite a rare item: it is 50 times rarer than water. Think of how many you see in a game) has a...90/70/50 B/U/C chance of protecting you from stat drains from a member of the undead (whether physical or the spell) [I don't feel like looking for the first post I made with numbers, so I'm just making up new ones!]. This is far from a change that's going to make stat drains bearable (far from it) at any point of the game, even if you have the item, but it's an interesting change that helps with some challenges--including undead greater vaults.

Blah, wall of text... I really think people should learn to express their opinion and move on. These overly drawn out conversations aren't helpful to anyone. Maybe we should enforce a limit of one or two responses at most to a feature request... ;)

Yeah, I think we know who's for and who's against and why.

Concensus amongst the fors seems to be for a ring/amulet that reduces the chance of being statdrained.