The only really dangerous stat-drainers are fairly late in the game, at which point, the PC has lots of ways to deal with them. Early in the game stat loss is pretty minimal, esp. once you can boost your luck a bit.

I don't think the present situation is terribly problematic, TBH.

An item that prevents stat drain would be useful, though. Not too overpowered IMO.

"Lots of ways to deal with them" is primarily slaying ammo, perhaps other missile or thrown weapons, or possibly magic. That's pretty much it. The problem isn't so much that you can't deal with them, it's that they (along with some other monsters) drive excessive missile weapon use because there are so few ways to deal with them - there is currently NO item I can equip or use that lets me get close to these guys unless I'm planning to instagib them somehow.

As I say, this follows on from the idea of nerfing missile weapons somehow, discussed http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1536 and http://www.facebook.com/thomas.bisku.../4258075737742

I support this. Yeah, stat drainers are not very dangerous, but they are risky enough to make melee characters want to use missiles... well, at least that's what mine do.

I wouldn't tone them down per se, but the idea of the rings/potions (an amulet could also be appropriate) sounds good.

How many stat drainers are so dangerous that you'd avoid them in melee? There's only a pretty small handful, I think, and some of them can be dealt with quite well with disablers prior to direct attack (stun rays seems particularly effective against minotaur mages, for example). Having it that not every monster can be dealt with in exactly the same manner is a good thing, IMHO.

Well, this is not really related to this, but I think you are wrong in your conclusion, JS. Not every monster can be dealt with in the exact same manner, well, that's fine. The problem is (and this is really the root of the entire problem): that's only true if you are a melee character. When you're a melee character, you have to find a fair number of creative solutions to not getting fucking toasted (mino mages is a good example: well charged wand of stunning). [of course, this isn't really true, a lot of these wind up being dealing with a monster in the exact same manner: ranged weapons or magic] If you are of the magic or ranged weapon school, you just cruise through the game doing your thing because what the hell do you care about stat drains and confusion and getting paralyzed? It's not like you're going to let them get in melee range and mess you up.*

*the above paragraph exaggerated a bit for effect

(and many things that can be tough to take at range present the same sort of problems in melee)

Serious post: I think this could be incorporated into the amulet of protection from undead. The really serious stat drainers (excepting greater daemon & mino mages, which you can deal with in other ways fairly easily) are undead, and there's already an amulet of protection from undead....so, instead of sometimes protecting you from physical draining attacks, let it protect you from any draining attack (physical or spell) due to undead. 95/70/20 B/U/C, checked after the check for it actually taking. This actually makes the items quite attractive, and starts to give people a way to take on GUV.

If the players are scared of stat drainers, the game is doing something right. Greater undead, ghost kings, demons, Keethrax, and minotaur mages should be scary. And in the early to mid game, you can get those drained stats back up with a little work. In the late game, high stats matter less anyway.

Heck, even my melee characters are still scared of werewolf kings--I've gotten f**ked up by their berserk crits too many times not to be.

I vote for no change. Although I admit to curiosity as to what the amulets vs undead and constructs actually DO. To this day I have no idea, although I wear them on the theory they do something.

The ring idea sounds at least interesting. I don't know about the other stuff.

Missiles do not work on dopplegangers at all. As well, several monsters cast confusion spells at a distance (and a few cast darkness), preventing missile attacks entirely. There are a number of monsters (will-o-wisps, steel golems, ki-rins, grues) with very high shrug rates from bolt spells, as well as multiple elemental immunities that make ball spells of limited effect as well (confusion from a distance also screws up your ability to cast spells, sometimes). Yes, the game certainly favours missile/magic over melee. I don't think that weakening a relatively minor and specialized problem (stat drains) is a particularly useful solution. As I said, with high luck (which most PCs have anyway), most stat drains can be avoided even if you're in melee range.

For outright emergencies, there's always wands. Neither are ranged specialists or spellcasters capable of always keeping a distance - that's not something you can easily dismiss. When they fail to do so, they have much lower toughness and don't quite have the defenses.

Besides, a clear distinction between melee, ranged and spellcasters does not actually exist. All characters are capable of using ranged weapons very effectively. There is precisely one class that is significantly better at ranged weapons than the rest and could be named a true "ranged" class, the archer; all the others get only slightly higher than average benefits at most. All characters are capable of using melee weapons, and training in defenses, fairly effectively. Not all characters can learn to spellcast effectively, but those who do have to deal with lower-than-average toughness and a harsh early game.

Getting close and personal with dreadful undead creatures just isn't as safe as keeping a distance, as a general rule (some creatures equipped with a devastating ranged attack are going to beg to differ). That's the way it should be. If you get to a high level with a melee character without ever using wands or ranged weapons, that is a) very impressive and b) fairly idiotic, because unnecessary.

Undead pretty much don't count since their stat drains are fairly limited. Proper stat drainers are extremely rare until late in the game; the only one you meet in midgame range is the greater daemon of Dwarftown, a wide open space with no other monsters to fight - perfect for using ranged weapons. Later, it's either more greater daemons as rare spawns, or minotaur mages (the minotaur maze is made for masochists anyway) and Nuurag-Vaarn (who is the biggest and baddest of the dudes you actually have to kill to win the game - if you kill him and survive, stat drains pretty much do not matter).

I know missiles don't work on dopplegangers. Consider, though, that you'd never melee a doppleganger king, so that's out. Any monster that can cast confusion at a distance can also confuse you in melee, making that an advantage to neither.

As for magic: anything with a high shrug rate can easily be overcome with a ball spell, which aren't that rare. In addition, very high effectivity makes this a non-issue most of the time, and very high effectivity is pretty easy to achieve. All the things you mention are quite punishing in melee as well, far more so. Anything with an elemental immunity can be hurt with another element; it's not like most casters are lacking in different element bolt spells to use. Confusion is not punishing at all on spellcasters, you have a much greater chance of being able to do something useful than a melee or ranged weapon based character.

Just because it's hard or you can't do something with ranged weapons or magic, doesn't mean the situation is any better in melee (it isn't, most of the time).

I didn't really state myself well earlier, but I don't think this does much to level the playing field, no. What I think it can do is give people a way to take on GUV--even with the right preparation, GUV are extremely hard for melee characters (and others, too). This would provide the possibility of the right preparation making a GUV actually possible, instead of nigh-guaranteed death.

Also, even with +Fate, +Luck & ankh, lich kings and the like are going to destroy your stats in no time at all.

There is no earthly reason to level the playing field.

There's very good reasons for leveling the playing field, which JS talked about above when he was talking about not being able to defeat every monster in the exact same way. I, of course, am not talking about making a melee character's life easier: rather, missile/magic users should have their lives made more difficult by being able to be corrupted, stat drained, and otherwise inconvenienced when they use monsters as roasting pits/pincushions. But that's for the issue I've already started.

The problem with clearing greater undead vaults isn't the stat drains. It's the summons and confusion. Missile users are at just as much disadvantage in clearing them as melee (in practice, you're stuck in melee range anyway unless you like being surrounded by 100s of summons). The only reason that they're marginally easier for casters is because you can strike multiple opponents at a time, and, more importantly, can strike targets when there is one (or usually several) monsters between you and them. Level 50 archers can clear GUVs for the same reason, but everybody else is out of luck. Also... have you tried clearing a GUV since HPcasting was nerfed? I haven't, but I know that in the GUVs I have cleared with a caster before, I was HPcasting acid ball every turn. Lacking that ability... I think GUVs are just going to be a nightmare for everybody. Except Paladins with Justifier, of course.

[edit]As it is, this feature is about making melee users life easier. If you want to suggest methods to nerf casting/missiles, I think that would require a separate RFE.

It really is the stat drains though. I have cleared significant portions of a GUV in melee (Pally with Justifier, Preserver, Protector & BoW, so you know if it was hard...) and with a mindcrafter (lot easier on mindcrafter, actually), and lich kings are simply brutal beyond belief (also I saw gutt "try"* to clear one once, also on a Justifier Pally). The confusion is a huge problem, but that's very, very, very doable with the right preparations (high Wi, water orb, doubling/tripling up -Conf). After a few stat drains in the wrong place, though, you start having to triple & quadruple up on -Conf, and eventually it's just kind of hopeless. Not to mention what they're doing to your non-Wi stats--you have to drop most of your things so you won't be overburdened & are less effective in bashing their heads in, you start losing lots of HP (& possibly PV), your speed & DV take a hit...it's a no-win situation. And that's not even mentioning the summons.

I don't think this is really making melee user's lives easier, at least as far as I have piggybacked on the suggestion (which has the bonus of making an item useful). Btw, I don't want to 'nerf' casting or missiles at all, they wouldn't lose any power at all under my suggestions. I've already sort of started another RFE for that, though, :)

*one of the best things I've ever seen. gut goes to suicide on a GUV and finds a couple wishes. I manage to convince him to wish for the emperor moloch on the same level as the GUV; he exterminates all the greater molochs with ease. (later wishes for rings of the clear mind due to Wi stat drains). Unfortunately, he forgot about some of the lich summons...especially some little brown worms. they quickly started taking over and 700 brown worms later, poor ole gut was dead.

Manageable with some chars. Also I end up digging out Lich Kings/Emperors quite often from their graves and I found out that MASSIVE DAMAGE over the shortest period of time is usually the best defense from stat drain for melee characters. The only creatures I really despise to melee are Minotaur Mages, since they seem to be skewed torward stat drain more than anything else

There are lots of potentially deadly special attacks in ADOM, but most of them have some sort of mitigation that a character can use.

Death rays can be dodged and can be resisted.
Petrification, likewise.
Paralysation can be resisted, and also becomes much less deadly as you gain a higher DV.
The banshee's wail can be defended against.
Confusion attacks can be resisted with the intrinsic, or with high willpower.
Elemental attacks have resistances and immunities (anyone feel like trying a red dragon vault with no fire resistance?)
Even the aging attacks of a ghost can be avoided if you have high enough DV and never get hit.

As far as I'm aware, there is no defense at all against stat drains. If the monster casts stat drain, you lose points in a stat. There's no chance for the spell to miss (that I know of), and once it hits, there's no way to resist it (that I know of). So I agree that there should be some way to defend against stat drains. I wouldn't even mind if it was an item with a downside too. You could call it something like an amulet of constance and make it so your stats couldn't go up or down by any means, possibly even make it stop you from gaining weapon marks or spell effectivities as well. That way, you'd only wear one if you really needed it, but in the cases where you do really need it, it would be there.

I think some people here must be forgetting just how common stat drains are. The dwarftown demon can do some awful things for instance. Same for many medium undead if your DV isn't super high. A few points of strength or toughness can quickly ruin a character. Us old players are used to automatically using missiles and spells and defensive tactics on these dudes. Which isn't to say newer players shouldn't learn these tricks too, but at the moment it's a very punishing lesson to have your fighter's strength drained to cripling levels making game progress impossible.

The "temporary drain" thing is very appropriate I think. It works well in many other parts of the game where the stat drain is punishing in the short term, but partially or fully recovers over time. In the late game it would still be very bad overall, as you wouldn't have the time to get those stats back, but it would mean that an early encounter with a vampire would be a total game ruiner for a low DV warrior.

(rare) items that prevent stat drain would be interesting. Having stat drain temporary would make it irrelevant. Now an early encounter with a shadow for example makes me cautious not to get hit. If I knew I was guaranteed to get drained stats back, I just wouldn't worry at all. At worst I'd need to hang around an easier level an murder some goblins. Or go to the ID for a while, murder some weak things and gather loot until the stats regenerate.