Cat lord level rebalancing
issueid=2343 09-15-2013 07:36 PM
Senior Member
Number of reported issues by kordi82: 3
Cat lord level rebalancing

Just killed cat lord while slowed and without see invisible. I got 3,5 million of experience for him. I believe that something has to change.... I do realize that he is one of the toughest enemies in the game but he is not worth 3,5 million of experience for the level of danger he poses. The basic problem with cat lord is that the player can easily lure him out of his level and then use teleportation to deal with him. I have a simple suggestions how to rebalance him (one of these should do the trick).

a/ make player unable to leave cat lord level until he kills him.
b/ make cat lord stay on the level and do not follow the player + make the stairs change locations once entering his level - similar solution to how it works in the pyramid.

Solution a is more extreme. Solution b is a little more balanced. Otherwise - give him HP regeneration so that the player cannot teleport and slowly take him down from the distance... or at least tone down experience for him.

I understand excessive experience for water dragon as water dragon can instakill level 50 character from a distance with 600 HP criticals but catlord is much easier enemy to deal with...
Issue Details
Issue Number 2343
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 5 - Medium
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 17
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 13
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)




09-16-2013 01:54 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Making cat lord stay on his no-teleport level would bring it in line with other recent change: - Monsters no longer willingly leave the temple levels. (c) http://www.adom.de/forums/project.ph...id=1118&page=2

I dont think that anything else is needed.
Agreeing with this.

09-16-2013 01:57 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble
Agreeing with this.
Only if he is able to heal while player leaves the map. Then I also agree.

09-16-2013 02:24 PM
Senior Member
You'd better teach me to sleep 10 hours per day than tell these obvious things.
Don't you think that if properly prepared character would not have any means of killing Cat Lord, this would be kind of unfair? Don't you? And even the best preparation doesn't guarantee anything. Paralizing rays can be shrugged off, giving him the time to reach you. Webs can break. Cat can get lucky with criticals and oneshot you. Wand of fireballs is only good if you have 32 Wi. Tell me how guaranteed this is. Don't forget about potentials. And even if you have 32 Wi, it's only good if Cat is either somehow disabled or panicking. So much guaranty. One cannot even run from him most of the time.

09-16-2013 02:31 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by kordi82
One last thing. I do not propose to make him even tougher. What I am saying is that he is not wroth experience points you can currently receive for him.
Jeez, where do I begin then?

1. Chaos Archmage will stand and throw ice/fire balls in your face when you are peppering him with missiles. The only thing you need to kill him is 1 charge of monster creation wand to avoid death ray while you escape MT. And he gives 1+ million base experience.
2. Sharad Waador will stand and throw fire balls in your face and sometimes will move but you can teleport away. And he gives 2+ million base experience.
3. Great red wyrms in greater vaults will get annihilated while standing and breathing/throwing fireballs in your face. Confusion can be reasonably fought with rings/helmets. And they give a lot of experience (~1 million base).
4. Stone grue on D:48 will die in 3-4 zaps of fireball wand, is slow as a turtle and gives 500k base experience.

Each one of these monsters are significantly less dangerous than the cat lord.

Cat lord is more dangerous than D:50 balors and even Fistanarius and I am not kidding. You can teleport/regenerate on D:49, do whatever you like.

If you want to balance xp gains, then you may want to start with the following things:
1. Each teleport casting decreases xp gains for the next 100/1000 turns by, say, 25%.
2. Changing the level decreases xp gains for the next 100/1000 turns by, say, 25% each time.
3. For each turn an enemy spends in webs/confused/paralyzed/blinded experience gain for it decreases by 10%.

Absurd suggestions, aren't they? Still, thess are the things that help you against monsters.

09-16-2013 02:32 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by Spellweaver
You'd better teach me to sleep 10 hours per day than tell these obvious things.
Don't you think that if properly prepared character would not have any means of killing Cat Lord, this would be kind of unfair? Don't you? And even the best preparation doesn't guarantee anything. Paralizing rays can be shrugged off, giving him the time to reach you. Webs can break. Cat can get lucky with criticals and oneshot you. Wand of fireballs is only good if you have 32 Wi. Tell me how guaranteed this is. Don't forget about potentials. And even if you have 32 Wi, it's only good if Cat is either somehow disabled or panicking. So much guaranty. One cannot even run from him most of the time.
Sorry, I see no point in further discussion with you. Once again, I do not want to make him stronger than he is.

Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Jeez, where do I begin then?

1. Chaos Archmage will stand and throw ice/fire balls in your face when you are peppering him with missiles. The only thing you need to kill him is 1 charge of monster creation wand to avoid death ray while you escape MT. And he gives 1+ million base experience.
2. Sharad Waador will stand and throw fire balls in your face and sometimes will move but you can teleport away. And he gives 2+ million base experience.
3. Great red wyrms in greater vaults will get annihilated while standing and breathing/throwing fireballs in your face. Confusion can be reasonably fought with rings/helmets. And they give a lot of experience (~1 million base).
4. Stone grue on D:48 will die in 3-4 zaps of fireball wand, is slow as a turtle and gives 500k base experience.

Each one of these monsters are significantly less dangerous than the cat lord.

Cat lord is more dangerous than D:50 balors and even Fistanarius and I am not kidding. You can teleport/regenerate on D:49, do whatever you like.

If you want to balance xp gains, then you may want to start with the following things:
1. Each teleport casting decreases xp gains for the next 100/1000 turns by, say, 25%.
2. Changing the level decreases xp gains for the next 100/1000 turns by, say, 25% each time.
3. For each turn an enemy spends in webs/confused/paralyzed/blinded experience gain for it decreases by 10%.

Absurd suggestions, aren't they? Still, thess are the things that help you against monsters.
I couldn't agree more with everything you say! You just pointed out what is wrong with Adom endgame in few paragraphs.

09-16-2013 03:01 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by kordi82
1. I killed emperor lich on dwarven graveyard. It gave me exactly 25 thousand of experience. Do not really now why you say emperor lich is worth 500k. I can show you screen from my monster memory if you don't believe me.
Interesting. I rarely kill emperor liches outside GUVs, and 500k xp for one is pretty typical there. I guess it's just a function of them being massively overleveled in GUVs.

09-16-2013 03:18 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
3. For each turn an enemy spends in webs/confused/paralyzed/blinded experience gain for it decreases by 10%.
In that case, what would be the point of having disablers in the game, if half the enemies you'd really want them to work on are immune, and the other half gets a large xp penalty?

09-16-2013 03:32 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by kordi82
I couldn't agree more with everything you say! You just pointed out what is wrong with Adom endgame in few paragraphs.
Well then, I see no point in creating threads about individual monsters. There is supposedly something wrong with ADOM experience-calculation routine.
From a wild guess, various property multipliers (if this is how this routine works) are somewhat unreasonable.

If we try to fix all of this by appropriately decreasing these things (you want to make cat lord give less xp after all), we will also fix all other monsters.

What's next, you ask? Say goodbye to level 50 class powers because around 25-30% of experience in the game comes from bosses + balors.

09-16-2013 03:35 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by anon123
In that case, what would be the point of having disablers in the game, if half the enemies you'd really want them to work on are immune, and the other half gets a large xp penalty?
Do I really need to quote myself? :D

Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Absurd suggestions, aren't they?

09-16-2013 03:57 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Well then, I see no point in creating threads about individual monsters. There is supposedly something wrong with ADOM experience-calculation routine.
From a wild guess, various property multipliers (if this is how this routine works) are somewhat unreasonable.

If we try to fix all of this by appropriately decreasing these things (you want to make cat lord give less xp after all), we will also fix all other monsters.

What's next, you ask? Say goodbye to level 50 class powers because around 25-30% of experience in the game comes from bosses + balors.

It's funny two people can read same thing and see different things. What is wrong is that all of these "bosses" are too easy to kill using tricks and deception. Nothing wrong in awarding proper experience as long as it is challenging enough. Somehow I always end up with overpowered characters in the endgame that breeze through the last 20 levels without fear of anything in their way. This time I chose Mist elven thief for challenge... and ended up with skullcrusher in my hand combined with class power level 25, find weakness, food preservation, wand of paralyzation, two pairs of seven league boots, ring of regeneration, 20 spells under my command, toughness at 35, ST 41 few weapons of hunting, few weapons of devastation, few weapons of penetration, I even have a freaking wand of destruction and I still have like 6 PoGA in my backpack.
My previous game with orcish merchant looked similarly.... instead of skullcrusher I had alchemy and cold blood corruption which allowed me to boost my speed to 200 at will.

And remember that these are both considered weak classes. I do not even want to start playing any spellcasting classes or somehting like i.e. mindcrafter or archer cause it will be even worse (meaning even more overpowered).

09-16-2013 04:31 PM
Ancient Member
Well, you do get proper experience for the cat lord if you don't slow yourself and make him invisible. (Not that xp matter all that much.) You're deliberately exploiting any and all advantages within the system - and having a great deal of success. It's not coincidence that your characters breeze through the last game - depending on perspective, you're either that good, or that unscrupulous at exploiting game-breaking features, or likely both.

If ADOM was a competitive multiplayer game played on tournaments, degenerate gameplay at the very top of the top would be an issue. But it's not - it's a single-player game with a limited life span. Perhaps it's just run out for you. You could try to not to overcharge monster xp with Slow Monster or Invisibility and see where that takes you. Or Brimstone Man.

09-16-2013 04:34 PM
Ancient Member
What am I reading wrong?

You've said: cat lord should give less xp because of all tactics that can be used against him.
I say: yes, the amount of way to simplify the battle is a reasonable way to solve this problem (if I saw that as a problem, mind you, which I don't, specifically in the cat lord case).

But:
You should think about consequences.
If we cut experience gains for the cat lord, we should cut them for all monsters which can be defeated with ease in a similar manner using the same tricks. If we do that, getting to level 50 will be a huge pain.

09-16-2013 04:46 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_
Well then, I see no point in creating threads about individual monsters. There is supposedly something wrong with ADOM experience-calculation routine.
From a wild guess, various property multipliers (if this is how this routine works) are somewhat unreasonable.

If we try to fix all of this by appropriately decreasing these things (you want to make cat lord give less xp after all), we will also fix all other monsters.

What's next, you ask? Say goodbye to level 50 class powers because around 25-30% of experience in the game comes from bosses + balors.
Honestly... XP gains in ADOM are pretty messed up, IMHO. I'd say it's more like 95 percent of XP comes from bosses/balors. The first million XPs will get you to around level 22 for a non-troll. You can kill 10 monsters to get the remaining ~19 million to get you to level 50. I'd love to see an overhaul of the XP system that would make XP growth more linear and less exponential--make it easier to gain levels, especially in the slow region from level 16-25, dramatically reduce the XPs from endgame bosses but raise it from substantially from all other high DL monsters. Make it so that level 32, 40 class powers actually come in at a point in the game when you get to take advantage of them, rather than just having them show up all at once on D:50. Getting to level 50 (even level 30) fighting "regular monsters" is pretty much impossible in the current system.

I'm not sure that such a rebalancing effort is possible/worthwhile this late in development, of course.

09-16-2013 05:18 PM
Ancient Member
Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer
Honestly... XP gains in ADOM are pretty messed up, IMHO. I'd say it's more like 95 percent of XP comes from bosses/balors. The first million XPs will get you to around level 22 for a non-troll. You can kill 10 monsters to get the remaining ~19 million to get you to level 50. I'd love to see an overhaul of the XP system that would make XP growth more linear and less exponential--make it easier to gain levels, especially in the slow region from level 16-25, dramatically reduce the XPs from endgame bosses but raise it from substantially from all other high DL monsters. Make it so that level 32, 40 class powers actually come in at a point in the game when you get to take advantage of them, rather than just having them show up all at once on D:50. Getting to level 50 (even level 30) fighting "regular monsters" is pretty much impossible in the current system.

I'm not sure that such a rebalancing effort is possible/worthwhile this late in development, of course.
Making types of monsters more danger level based will help somewhat. Give me ancient dragons to kill on D:40 not a bunch of rats, goblins, frogs and imps.

09-16-2013 07:23 PM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by kordi82
Orcish merchant (and believe me when I say he really took beating from master cat): 60-140 - 75 on average

Orcish merchatnt had approximately 400-450 HP when facing him (do not remember correctly).
Two x5 penetrating crits and you are done. Crits deal *2-*5 damage.

Cat lord could kill your "unkillable" character in 1 (one) turn. Not that he has good chance for it, but he still could do it.

09-17-2013 12:14 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by asdf
Two x5 penetrating crits and you are done. Crits deal *2-*5 damage.

Cat lord could kill your "unkillable" character in 1 (one) turn. Not that he has good chance for it, but he still could do it.
And... ? What's the point in game where nothing can kill you? Especially a one like ADOM where "no save" policy is a trademark and all the fun revolves around it...
And you will sooner win a lottery than see two penetrating critical hits from him in one turn when your char is on coward with 80+ DV.

09-17-2013 04:47 AM
Ancient Member
What several people are telling you (and I concur) is that if you make the game difficulty so hard that even a very powerful character that has used exploits to buff himself and made side quests, and controlled by a very experienced player, *and* not making any strategic mistakes in the battle, can still be killed in one turn; then it would be absolutely impossible for players who don't squeeze every optimization out of their character, or who make a mistake from time to time.

And anyway, why do you think it's that bad that if you play really well, buff your character enough, use all the options that the game throws at you, and not make mistakes, you won't die? The point of dying in roguelikes is learning from your death, so that you don't make the same mistake again. If you buff bosses to the point that even the most prepared character can be instakilled without having done anything wrong, you lose that.

09-17-2013 07:25 AM
Member
According to the Ancardian Dwarven Institute of Statistics, death by cat lord is still among the main sources of demise for would-be heroes in the Drakalor Chain (you can ask the ghost librarian for the relevant papers). So I vote for no change at all on this matter.

On a more serious note: every time I had to face the cat lord, I found the fight very difficult to say the least, even when I managed to lure him to another level. It is one of the toughest fights in the game, and I think the gain in experience is more than deserved. I realize that some people find the game too easy, and therefore boring, but please keep in mind that things are different for many, many players.

09-17-2013 09:34 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by TDau
According to the Ancardian Dwarven Institute of Statistics, death by cat lord is still among the main sources of demise for would-be heroes in the Drakalor Chain (you can ask the ghost librarian for the relevant papers). So I vote for no change at all on this matter.

On a more serious note: every time I had to face the cat lord, I found the fight very difficult to say the least, even when I managed to lure him to another level. It is one of the toughest fights in the game, and I think the gain in experience is more than deserved. I realize that some people find the game too easy, and therefore boring, but please keep in mind that things are different for many, many players.

How many times shall I tell you guys. I do not want to make him tougher. All I want is:
a/ stop teleport madness. After all, there was a reason to make his level teleport restricted.
b/ make so that players are unable to squeeze 3,7 million experience out of him. He is by no means worth THAT much.

If A and B are not changed at least give him HP regen so that at least while teleporting away from him player has to have some serious DPS to kill him. Right now you can teleport all day and take him with wands without him ever touching you.

You are forgetting guys that you CAN avoid him by completing his quest.

Also I do not see anything wrong in chance to die which can be measured in fractions of percentage point if everything is done correctly. This chance exists constantly. i.e. you can get blinded by a flashtrap just to stumble into a gorgon who will instakill you with a lucky shot etc. .... (I almost got obliterated by gorgon yesterday when I was on level 8 of CoC with my lvl 40 character and thought that nothing can kill me in there...)


P.S.
I am also curious if Master Cat can destroy doors. If so another way of dealing with him would be to lock yourself on his level and digg your way through to the other stairs without interacting with him. Possibilities are endless....

09-17-2013 10:08 AM
Senior Member
Quote Originally Posted by kordi82
b/ make so that players are unable to squeeze 3,7 million experience out of him. He is by no means worth THAT much.
I challenge you to delete Bug Cave/Minotaur Maze/Rift/Water Dragon Cave from your routine, crown asap, do darkforge after khelly, _do not_ save khelavaster if you did not found wish/amulet before meeting him.

You would have ordinary game. I guess you would find it interesting and challenging.

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