But it is on topic; the RFE presupposes a capitulation to certain sensibilities, and scrutinizing the origin and validity of those sensibilities is not a totally different topic. And people could just as easily want to chime in or enjoy reading the discussion as finding it an annoying tangent that they want to skip over, so confining it to a PM would rob them of that.

If a mod/admin tells me to pack it in, however, then I'll concede. Personally I always felt this was an easy-going forum that isn't too fussy about rules, but maybe that's just down to busy devs and a lack of moderator presence...

Awesome, fair enough!


Well, absolutely. Fictional depictions of characterful traits aren't what's at issue here - the problem is that the marginalising language is in the OOC HUD and similar places where it can't be explained by character responses.
I am glad the decision was made to remove b*tch, though, which always felt like a typo to me in the first place. It made total characterful sense, but I started to hate the character at that point - shame, for Yggaz! Honestly I think we could see a little less sexism used as villainous motivation, and some original causes instead (ChAoS is pretty good at originality so no problems here-!), simply because it really gets -tired- when that's the big reveal again and again. But, I'm not arguing to change one single millimetre of one character's personality.

This RFE isn't intended to be a major public-action feminist outcry, which is why I'm trying to shut down overt discussion of patriarchy to some extent, otherwise it's -going- to turn into one.
Obviously it's a feminist issue by default, though, and that can't be avoided. It's literally a call for equal representation and treatment on a gender basis. I just hope the thread doesn't clutter too much and stop others posting suggestions.
It's just a simple matter regarding the fact that a portion of ADOM's players are being singled out by the game as they play it, and it's just gone worldwide beta, so it's a good idea to address this ASAP now that the game is picking up speed because the audience is no longer word-of-mouth and can't be recruited solely that way anymore. The changes I've suggested for the most part wouldn't impact on the game world, would actually -decrease- the text load if removing 'female' and leaving pronouns was chosen, and could be worked into to increase variation rather than reduce it. The priority I chose for the thread reflects the degree of improvement and issue avoidance it would bring - I know it's going to be a hassle to implement, but I hope it's at least addressed and put on the to-do list quickly.

Totally agree on swordsman/swordswoman.
What about lizardman? It's a racial descriptor - yes the racial descriptor shows cultural bias towards "male" being the default, but "man" is one of the terms (yes, weighted) for our race. "Lizardfolk"?

Separately:
I think it would be a little bit interesting to not be 50% across enemy types. For instance, for flavor, orcs could be 70% male, but lizardmen/lizardfolk could be 70% female (since in reptilian species females are often bigger than males - maybe that's true for the humanoid lizard species?)
Kobolds are also related to lizards in some settings - so they could also be 70% female. Maybe casters (Ogre Magi, Dark Sage) should be weighted more towards females? Berserkers should probably be 100% male just to simplify the wedding ring issue.
One of the things I like about Adom is that there are so many small details - I think having differently weighted gender balances across enemy types would contribute to that.

Lizardfolk sounds good, as long as it fits with the setting. Lizardkin? Lizardkind? If we're changing 'swordsman' it makes sense to change both and 'lizardwoman' just sounds.. weird. There are plenty of others that might work, too. Werewolf Queens (Lord can be intergender, but Queen is good, especially as there's a good tradition of female wolf mothers in fiction), Troll Queens, Ogre Queens, etcetera - whatever doesn't conflict with canon.
We can probably implement some male options too if Thomas is willing, but most of them are already covered I believe? Quicklings already have kings AND queens, elven Lords and Priestesses match up, and most monster names are neutral. Maybe some Princes.
With the barbarian issue it might be possible to check for PC gender either way - or even just to have the reply available regardless.
Love the idea of varied percentages across other races for flavour. My original comment on the matter was it'd be nice to see a balance nearer 50% - this does not have to be per species! In fact it's more interesting if many species weigh in different directions. Dark Elves are already slightly feminised for example. That said, it'd be good if the early-game species balanced out as best as possible. If orcs end up majority male then goblins (or other prevalent humanoid foo) should probably tilt in the other direction.
I've changed my original RFE text to clarify this more easily and to include your suggestion!

I was thinking about the ChAoS DiPlOmAt. I think he tells the player to "kill that bitch", referring to the Ice Queen. I thought that was the reference that was being talked about. I might be wrong and have mixed things up, though.

You did change my mind. It's true, if it doesn't make a difference to me but it may make a positive difference to many people, it's worth upvoting. Done.

I actually haven't got to that NPC yet, so I don't know for sure myself. Yggaz also says something along the lines of "my wife left me, that b*tch". Yggaz's is more reasonable given he was personally affronted but the diplomat's language is just unnecessary.
Perhaps they've both been changed? Either way, I'm really glad that step was taken.


Awesome! :3

I have to admit I generally dislike rewrites of game flavour in an effort to address various real-world issues in a fantasy setting, unless the game itself points out the given problem as a part of its course. One unnamed game got as far as carefully removing the description of appearance from all creature entries, as well as nearly scrapping mermaids only because they are female-only monster and their mythos mentions them being of great beauty. This is wrong.

However, I haven't found anything wrong with your proposal, while the removal of "female" prefix and the additon of randomised s/he into descriptions would be only of benefit, I think. Yes, you have my upvote. :D

Also, don't forget lich queens/empresses. :)

And as for berserkers, they should be male-olny. Screw Diablo III. :) There could be new "amazon" monsters added to the K-class, though, to balance this change. :D

RK - thanks very much!
I prefer a more even balance where there isn't any reason to have a less even one but I completely respect that this can sometimes be taken too far. Again, it's not so much about a deliberate attempt to "address real world issues" as it is to recognise and respect the fact that 20 years have passed since this game was first created and what was normal in fantasy games back then sits uncomfortably with the modern player base (plus, language choices such as 'female swordsman' that appear fine to a second-language speaker are very weird to a native American or Brit). I've only suggested changes that I honestly think will produce a net positive without diminishing the content of the game.
About berserkers, we have a female berserker character in our gaming group right now, so it's weird to think of it as impossible - but if canon requires, sure. Add a "firebrand" or "pit fighter" or "woad warrior" or similar progression that's female-only instead.

I read your suggestion twice more or less attentively.

So the first and your main suggestion is to completely get rid of "female" prefix keeping all other grammar (he / she) as is. I never thought about such a simple thing before and see it as a first very necessary step on the way forward.

The second suggestion is to standardise name so that they're neutral or specific for both male and female genders (swordsman/swordswoman/swordfighter). I do like swordsman / swordswoman more since it adds more detail but "You hit swordsman with full force but didn't manage to harm her." (taking into account 1st point is implemented and there is no "female" prefix) would sound a bit more awkward than "You hit swordfighter with full force but didn't manage to harm her."
That's what I digged from the DF raws (male / female name examples in pairs): tiercel peregrine / peregrine falcon, kiwi hen / kiwi cock, pen swan / cob swan, duck / drake, sow / boar (widely used, e.g. giant armadillo boar), cow / bull, centauress / centaur, ogress / ogre, giantess / giant, mermaid / merman, kangaroo doe / kangaroo buck, hen / rooster, nanny goat / billy goat, goose / gander, ewe / ram, stoat jill / stoat jack.
I hope there is a possibility to make the same for ADOM and I'm mainly voting for it :). E.g. female air demon could become air demoness. I'm not sure whether it's correct to say "fightress" from the English grammar point but it would look nicer on the background than "female fighter". Some classes could have entirely different descriptions e.g. "enchantress" or "sorceress" instead of "female wizard".

The third suggestion is to add more female monster types: fire giant queens, princesses, ghost ladies, lich empress, maybe completely new amazon warriors.

Finally add more female non-hostile monsters - notably shopkeepers (or maybe tradeswomen?).

I support all the changes and see it as top-priority.

Despite it's mostly a must-implement change for impression I'll add my 5 cents about gameplay. I'm for it and for more diversity between males and females. For both PC and monsters. I'd give for males more health, strengths, to-damage and toughness, charisma. For females dexterity, dodge, perception, mana, appearance or even speed.

P.S. there is a one monster which should be left as is to safe our memory about "female" prefix - female claw bug!

I'm not sure we need to add genders for animals. For one thing, for many animals I can't tell the difference between them without looking very carefully - which I'm unlikely to do in combat.
That said, if we're not going to do genders for animals, they should definitely be it/they rather than he.

I like the idea of "female claw bug"

That's everyone's fault. I don't feel like you're opposed to this change. Just be a man and support this RFE because someone of the opposite wonderful gender needs our support ;)

There are almost no animals in ADOM. I never paid much attention about which monsters in ADOM do have gender and which are genderless (but female was bothering me all the time). I took these from DF raws not to suggest doing exactly the same for ADOM but just to show how elegant this issue can be dealt with.

"Female orc" was already quite ridiculous to read, with "male orc" it is more so. I think that the reference to gender should be moved to [M]ore section of the moster description.

I always find it an amusing if probably non-intentional allusion to Monkey Island, which had a female 'swordmaster of melee island'. The thing is those were english developers and I'm pretty sure even back in 1990 when the game was made it sounded weird to call a female a 'master'. Then again, some female authority figures in the army prefer 'sir' rather than 'ma'am' when addressing them, so who knows.

I'd get rid of the "male/female orc" label and simply let combat messages reveal gender. 'l'ooking at them already does so - the game says "he/she does not care about you/is not injured/looks somewhat experienced", and many female monsters have alternate descriptions too.

I agree with the rest of the changes mentioned in the first post.

Yep, exactly. Absolutely no reason not to - it even streamlines the game.

I concurrently suggested that more monsters get labelled 'female' via their pronouns (grammatical description) at the same time since currently 'female' variant monsters are fairly rare - only keeping to those whose names allowed the prefix. It'd be nice to see them spread throughout the game world. I believe both of these changes are first prerequisite (or else existing gender differences won't be noticeable any more).


Completely agree that swordswoman is better for the female swordsman, because swordfighter is too close to fighter.
The third suggestion 'swordfighter' is designed either to replace BOTH names to avoid name variation, or else to take into account the potential inclusion of a third gender option using the pronoun 'they', which would be a nice addition to the game if desired, and which may be implementable if gender is set to randomise (harder if effectively two creatures will need creating to enable the gender variation). It's also useful if there's no way to link name randomisation with pronouns and graphics (unlikely, but I'm not the Creator and I haven't read the code).

MOST of the names are already gender-neutral, because Thomas is awesome. Women can be fighters. Demons can presumably be female. It's just weird to have a female "swordsman".
I'd be fine reading a sentence like "You hit the fighter with full force but didn't manage to harm her." Replace fighter with swordsman or lizardman, though, and there's suddenly a problem.

Wizard is a bit of a strange case but it could be left as-is (no reason it couldn't be a gender-neutral term in Ancardia), changed to 'enchantress' to match the background (your mother was an enchantress, your father was a humble shepherd on her land) and so on. Sage, for example, is fine either way.


These would both be really great. While the main suggestion is priority 3 (maybe higher), though, these are closer to priority 5 - but they also interlink with the other issues which is why they share an RFE.
For example, if we're going to rebalance gender to be randomly selectable by species but still want all berserkers male for wedding purposes (if we do), then a female equivalent would be a good idea.

Regarding the other monster types - I was actually suggesting that the names varied along with the pronouns, by gender - if this is possible (and it should be according to named monsters already existing) then there's no reason that a Fire Giant King which rolled as female via the RNG shouldn't have the monster name altered to "Fire Giant Queen".
This could even be taken a step further to Fire Giant Monarch in the kills list if desirable.

One note - Princess would be good to see (or Lady, or equivalent) in replacement for some of the classes that use Prince - but for parity we could add Dark Elven Princes (assuming canon doesn't conflict, matriarchy and all). Or simply keep one of each type single-gendered. I'm all for fairness. :)


You are awesome, and thanks for that. I was really disappointed to see someone list it as 'Priority 11' and frankly I see this as high priority now that we're in public release.


Great! But yes, I've come to totally agree with this now - my second suggestion was far better. It streamlines the game more and takes the focus away from gender completely while still letting it be a part of the game's richness (especially so, if variation becomes more widespread). Keeping the alternate descriptions for female and male versions of monsters is a great idea, too - especially if the gender and thus description randomises in the monster memory when you type a monster name in.

My ideal implementation of this would be to see all applicable monster types possessing a RNG'd gender at generation which then affects their pronouns, description, 'l'ook and attack messages, name (where gendered), graphics (if doable), and monster memory, when encountered -- and to have a monster memory that flashes one up at random (or the appropriate gender by name for Kings/Queens etc).


Note that she's not the "Female Swordmaster of Melee Island"...
This is a cute idea, but in Monkey Island it's a deliberate reference, and I don't think it's strong enough to carry a whole game of gendered writing on its own. Nowadays a 'swordmaster' can be of any gender so the reference is no longer current. ADOM may have been gamma'd in the mid nineties but it's being released in 2015.
That said, I'm already giving this a nod by suggesting that knights, fighters and lords should be available to both genders anyway.


The reason I used the terms "applicable" and "humanoid" were because some creatures have no gender - notably inanimate magical objects, and animals. Animals should remain as it or they IMO.
But I love ixi's suggestions for alternate versions of certain creatures that already have a gendered name, and can't see any reason not to hunt wild sow in the wildnerness. I'd be alright with female Boars, though - Wild Boar is a species title as well as a male signifier. Either way.


Agreed completely. And you're right, it is ridiculous! ;D
I wrote the original RFE in a short time and comments since have significantly swayed me toward this option. I've edited the original text to show this.
My line of thinking was that if it wasn't possible to replace 'female' as a component with solely monster description, memory and 'l'ook messages (all of which currently do show he/she/it as appliable anyway) then at least adding 'male' would square things up.
I'd rather both were removed, however. Streamline everything in the user interface!
It also gives us an unprecedented opportunity to submit even more flavourful monster descriptions to vary male/female, if the dev team have that much patience. :)

So, out of interest - why "female claw bug" in particular? Is this a stealth Aliens reference? :)

I'm assuming it's because the claw bugs partly represent *game* bugs. So if we think of the "female" prefix being a bug/legacy of old system, then it makes sense to have "female claw bug". At least, that's the reasoning by which I support it.

I mean, the bug temple is full of references to actual game bugs.

Fun fact: the term 'bug' was coined by a female programmer who found an insect in the punch-cards they used back then. Oops, I mean just a programmer. A programmer (f).

Actually that may be a myth...

"the term 'bug' was coined by a programmer when she found an insect"


Heh! I didn't know that, it went totally over my head the last time I actually bothered with the bug temple (quite a few years ago).
In that case, why not?
Or even a "female" claw bug. (That's gonna come over as transphobic, actually. Hm.)
We'd still get occasional complaints, though.

*Maybe it could be a bug-temple only creature, like the other major bugs found in there. That way it'll only appear in context and it might make more sense as a legacy reform.

*Also, I really like the fact that we're already talking about this as an old bug that's been fixed in retrospect.