chaos knights who want to change their ways..
issueid=1426 12-12-2012 10:43 AM
Ancient Member
Number of reported issues by grobblewobble: 72
chaos knights who want to change their ways..
It may be a bit early for this feature request, because there may be aspects that haven't been discovered yet. Nonetheless..

I'm actually starting to think that the way it is now, converting to N or L (at least temporarily) is almost mandatory from a gaming perspective. The advantages are huge and the disadvantage can be worked around (if you are tough enough you don't take damage). Doing so takes a lot of boring work (saccing some 200 goldpieces one by one), without being challenging. That's not a good thing to force players to do. The fact that converting away from C is difficult is great and should of course stay, but preferably in a way that is more engaging and less rough on your keyboard. Ideas, anyone?

I was thinking that perhaps an NPC could have mercy and offer you a chance at redeeming your soul. Game wise, this could perhaps take the shape of some quest that offers a whip* as reward, which you can use on yourself to change your ways? Ideally, I would love to see some storyline that explains why your chaos knight would convert himself and makes it less of a choir and more of a challenge in-game.

*: preferably a whip with good damage in case the player has innate PV or the Scales corruption. A lawful whip of mayhem, maybe?
edit: or, an ordinary whip and a whole set of items with negative PV? :-)

edit2: Never mind the whip idea, it's more mind numbing than saccing at an altar, at least the way it works currently.

edit3: A different idea which has been raised is to make their class powers less effective or even disable them altogether when they change alignment.
Issue Details
Issue Number 1426
Issue Type Feature
Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)
Category All
Status Suggested
Priority 8
Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7
Implemented Version (none)
Milestone (none)
Votes for this feature 2
Votes against this feature 5
Attachments 0
Assigned Users (none)
Tags (none)


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12-07-2013 07:26 AM
Ancient Member
Yes, I meant the 'repeat last action' button, good catch.

I don't know if I like my own idea any more. The core problem that needs to be addressed is that as it is, the easiest way by far is to play as follows: convert early on, quickly do the lawful quests and reap the rewards for it, then convert back to C.
Staying in character (staying C for the whole game) is strongly penalized.

None of the existing countermeasures to this problem help.

It was probably the intention to make conversion difficult, but as it stands it is really easy. I see this as a consequence of a flaw in the alignment system itself, where a few small sacrifices at an altar have far more influence on your alignment than your actions. A character who kills beggars at will, robs shops and digs graves, but then makes a few small sacrifices is considered a saint. A character who risks his life to be in time to save the cute dog only gets a small alignment boost and will probably still be considered a chaotic if he started out as one.

Anyway, I'm digressing.

The penalties for being non-chaotic (losing class powers and so on) are only relevant for those player who want to stay non-chaotic. If you are only non-chaotic for a short while, you can get all the benefits of the lawful quests without being affected that much.

Even if there was some sort of redemption quest to become neutral / lawful, it would probably not solve this problem. The only solutions I can think of that would really help: either

1. let NPC's remain hostile to chaos knights if they changed alignment, or
2. make conversion truly difficult or impossible
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12-07-2013 08:31 AM
Ancient Member
A third alternative: when you do the quest for redemption, you become so repented of your past ways (or maybe you do some pact or binding with a supernatural entity) that every chaotic act you perform physically harms you, and becoming C in alignment outright kills you.

In fact, I think a great idea would be that the quest gives you an artifact called an amulet of redemption, that lets you be N or L without suffering horrible consequences. If you remove the amulet, you die because a non-chaotic chaos knight cannot exist without it (this should be said by an NPC in the quest, the idea isn't about killing unspoiled players). If you become C, the amulet itself kills you.

Note that I said amulet (not ring, etc.) because this means that you won't be able to use an AoLS to go back to C. So if you decide to convert, the conversion is forever. Tee hee hee.

Also, the normal gate-closing ending should be open to CK's that have made this conversion and have the amulet, as they won't be destroyed.

What do you think about this?
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12-07-2013 09:24 AM
Ancient Member
Interesting idea, though it would mean they could never finish an ultra chaotic ending.

Alternatively, it could be that when you switch back to chaotic, Andor Drakon is still angry with you and doesn't accept you back. Consequences: you worship your normal chaotic god instead of Andor Drakon now, you don't get back your class powers, you keep the stat penalty and you keep getting burn damage.
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12-07-2013 09:31 AM
Ancient Member
If you are redeemed why would you? Redeemed means you are not interested in becoming chaotic again. "Changing your ways." again?

Edit - Maybe there should be a way for Chaotic CKs to summon the TotRR using something and the Crumpled scroll without the need for Khelavaster, it is anyway illogical for a chaotic CK to save his life.
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12-07-2013 09:46 AM
Ancient Member
To finish an ultra chaotic ending?

I totally agree that it makes no sense to switch back and forth your alignment. That is precisely the reason I came up with an RFE. It should not be the optimal way to play, but currently it is.

It is still the only way to finish a chaotic ultra, so that is why I am trying to think of a measure that penalizes alignment switching without making it completely impossible.
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12-07-2013 09:49 AM
Ancient Member
Read my edit, maybe Kherab's third quest is the spear that when wielded a CK can tap some magical powers from it that allows them to summon the trident. Edit - Maybe Kherabs third quest could be a request for an AoLS?
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12-07-2013 09:51 AM
Ancient Member
Well yeah, that would work too.
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12-07-2013 10:19 AM
Ancient Member
Maybe even better the CK has to wield/wear all three rewards while standing on top of the volcano. Edit - Sharad-Waador's attitude will have to change though. Edit 2 - And the Mad Minstrel will gladly see Andor overthrown, so he will share the location of the Scintilating cave especially to a CK that is powerful enough to kill Filk(snicker).

Edit last( I hope ) - Wrt to changing alignment through sacrifices, I think it is probably alright if that disappears altogether from the game. There is more than enough ways to alter alignment in ADOM and I agree sacrificing gold is just too easy and repetitive and not really a test of morals. Although getting from C- to NC will be quite a challenge. But as some gutsy member will tell you, not really. Unholy Aura will be very desirable for those seeking redemption.

Edit (Here we go again) - sorry about the dribs and drabs. Wrt to the amulet that Al-Khwarizmi is proposing, maybe that amulet can be obtained by non-CKs as well. The function of it is that it makes chaotics, even chaotic gods(being that it is Andor that kills a Non-C CK), think you are chaotic while worn. There is your Ultra ending having to physically change alignment solved too. Oops, there is a problem though. It cannot be an amulet, headgear, weapon or shield. So to be precise, it is not the quest that makes you change alignment, the quest is simply to obtain the artifact. The artifact physically kills any PC wearing it committing a chaotic act, AoLSs are pretty rare.

I went to go read a Neutral Chaos Knight's "Further fate", that sounds pretty reasonable?
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