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chaos knights who want to change their ways..

12-12-2012 10:43 AM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Number of reported issues by grobblewobble: 72

chaos knights who want to change their ways..

It may be a bit early for this feature request, because there may be aspects that haven't been discovered yet. Nonetheless..

I'm actually starting to think that the way it is now, converting to N or L (at least temporarily) is almost mandatory from a gaming perspective. The advantages are huge and the disadvantage can be worked around (if you are tough enough you don't take damage). Doing so takes a lot of boring work (saccing some 200 goldpieces one by one), without being challenging. That's not a good thing to force players to do. The fact that converting away from C is difficult is great and should of course stay, but preferably in a way that is more engaging and less rough on your keyboard. Ideas, anyone?

I was thinking that perhaps an NPC could have mercy and offer you a chance at redeeming your soul. Game wise, this could perhaps take the shape of some quest that offers a whip* as reward, which you can use on yourself to change your ways? Ideally, I would love to see some storyline that explains why your chaos knight would convert himself and makes it less of a choir and more of a challenge in-game.

*: preferably a whip with good damage in case the player has innate PV or the Scales corruption. A lawful whip of mayhem, maybe?
edit: or, an ordinary whip and a whole set of items with negative PV? :-)

edit2: Never mind the whip idea, it's more mind numbing than saccing at an altar, at least the way it works currently.

edit3: A different idea which has been raised is to make their class powers less effective or even disable them altogether when they change alignment.

Issue Details

Issue Number 1426

Issue Type Feature

Project ADOM (Ancient Domains Of Mystery)

Category All

Status Suggested

Priority 8

Suggested Version ADOM 1.2.0 pre 7

Implemented Version (none)

Milestone (none)

Votes for this feature 2

Votes against this feature 5

Attachments 0

Assigned Users (none)

Tags (none)

12-12-2012 11:00 AM

Grey

Ancient Member

Can't you still take Tywat to the bandit town and get an amulet of order? Or kill Hotzy for the amulet?

12-12-2012 11:20 AM

Soirana

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Grey

Can't you still take Tywat to the bandit town and get an amulet of order? Or kill Hotzy for the amulet?

You can kill Hotzy just sheriff still won't talk with you. Luring does not work either.

personally I would prefer if chaos knights died while changing allignment:)

12-12-2012 11:30 AM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

I also suspect (although haven't tested) that an amulet of order would take an extremely long time to work, the same way it does for a very high level C character of another class. That is why I suggested a whip.

Edit: from a test it appears that whips don't work any better than altars.

12-21-2012 07:05 AM

wzq

Junior Member

A different idea which has been raised is to make their class powers less effective or even disable them altogether when they change alignment.

I support this idea, because it is consistent with the story to play chaos knights chaotically and suffer when deviating from the chosen path. So no for the easier alignment change. If it makes the game too hard it should be made easier it other ways (consider the other RFEs considering healing, potion of literacy and Mad Minstrel).

12-21-2012 09:56 AM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by wzq

So no for the easier alignment change. If it makes the game too hard it should be made easier it other ways

I never said it makes the game hard. Sacrificing 220 gold pieces one by one isn't hard. Only boring.

12-21-2012 10:23 AM

wzq

Junior Member

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

I never said it makes the game hard. Sacrificing 220 gold pieces one by one isn't hard. Only boring.

You're right. Maybe it is the mechanism how alignment changes when sacrificing that needs to be changed. It is contradictory that the response is different when you sacrifice 200 gold pieces separately than when you sacrifice them all at once. If anyone has new ideas, they could be posted as a separate RFE.

12-21-2012 10:31 AM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by wzq

I'd think that having the alignment points be proportional to the number of gold pieces would be more than sufficient. So sacrificing one gold piece 100 times and sacrificing 100 gold pieces at once would have the same effect on alignment.

Then, the only concern would be avoiding sacrificing enough to convert the altar. If that worked in exactly the same way, with more gold pieces moving the altar's alignment further than fewer gold pieces, it should make it so that it doesn't matter how quickly you sacrifice gold, the result would be the same - if the number of gold pieces necessary to convert the altar is higher than the number necessary to convert the PC, the PC will convert. Otherwise, the altar will convert.

12-21-2012 10:41 AM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Aielyn

The most likely effect is that chaos knights can no longer convert at an altar, since the altar would convert much sooner than they. If no new alternative is offered, I imagine this would lead to spending one hour of real life time harvesting stomafillia herbs and spenseweed, followed by two real-life hours of whipping yourself and healing up in the wilderness.. or spending similar amounts of time casting minor heal on a drowning pet or force feeding some beggar.

This is why my most preferred solution would be to make changing alignment easier, but the consequences of changing alignment more grave. And I still think a sort of quest for alignment change would be cool, so that it all makes more sense from a storytelling perspective.

12-21-2012 12:06 PM

Aielyn

Senior Member

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

The most likely effect is that chaos knights can no longer convert at an altar, since the altar would convert much sooner than they.

It would only apply to sacrificing gold, and so other small sacrifices would be possible. But beyond that, I don't see why it should be trivial for a chaos knight to convert at an altar at all. They would need to use multiple altars, if they wanted to do it that way.

If it makes it too hard to convert a chaos knight at all, I'd just slightly loosen some of the other methods of converting.

On a related note, is the Dwarftown altar coaligned with the PC on level generation for Chaos Knights? If it is, perhaps it shouldn't be. Chaos Knights are, after all, different from other classes, and I don't see Dwarftown having an altar that is technically to ChAoS. If it were always Lawful for a Chaos Knight, it might provide a way to help the PC to change alignment.

EDIT: Also, I agree that Chaos Knights should be able to convert more easily, but be punished harder for it. I'm just talking about the gold sacrificing issue in general, since it results in a relatively tedious process.

12-21-2012 03:08 PM

rho

Member

Personally, I'd rather see it be entirely impossible for Chaos Knights to convert, and then have them balanced around this. If the current problem is that it isn't possible to play a Chaos Knight without converting, then the solution should be to make it so that it is, and not to make it so that converting is easier. If I pla a Chaos Knight, I want for it to be a different experience than playing another character; I don't want to shoehorn it into playing the same as everyone else. So let's make conversion be literally impossible, so people don't feel compelled to do it, and then let's balace accordingly.

And actually, thinking about this, I'm wondering if it mightn't be a good idea to get rid of converting a PC's alignment using altars entirely. Sacrificing one gold at a time at an altar makes very little sense and is completely non-intuitive, and also makes alignment more or less a non-issue, given how easy it makes changing.

12-21-2012 03:29 PM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Making it impossible to convert is a good alternative, and both endings (closing the gate and OCG) are completely possible to achieve while being C for the entire game (I did both; OCG failed only because I stupidly left the trinity on D:47).

In that case I'd suggest maybe letting the mad minstrel accept the weird tome and giving the SoCR reward, to make it just a little less difficult. Being C for the entire game is really great from a roleplaying perspective; the feeling of everyone hating you is overwhelming and very impressive.

Originally Posted by rho

If the current problem is that it isn't possible to play a Chaos Knight without converting, then the solution should be to make it so that it is

The problem is more that the advantages of converting are so enormous that from a pure gaming perspective, you'd have to be mad not to. The dwarven mystic rewards, the Thrundarr quests including the elemental gauntlets and tons of healing potions, the healing skill, guaranteed literacy, guaranteed PoCC's from the druid.... it's possible to win without, but really much harder.

02-17-2013 03:11 PM

aerol

Senior Member

This was addressed in 1630 (read the creator's comment). Since Thomas is receptive to the idea of a special quest being available, if anyone has ideas for that, you should post them on a separate ticket :)

12-05-2013 06:24 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

I could have completed two abnormal endings and one Ordinary Chaos God, although this probably should have a different name with Chaos Knights. With no failed attempt for the abnormal endings and two failed attempts with the latter. So playing Chaos Knights as Chaos Knights is definitely possible. It is hard, but I feel it is reasonable as it now stands. No need to change access to quests currently denied or alternative quests added.

To be honest though, I did not close the gate with the first two, but I was on D:50 and there was no logical action to take, but to enter the gate with the first and dying by failing the final test of course and trying to destroy the levers with the second, but they are indestructible while in the open position. The Chaos God attempt was converted into a being of chaos on the chaos plane after becoming paralyzed. The first one was also an equipment/location restricted challenge and the last a no grinding/herb farming challenge.

I too think they should die a sudden and violent exploding death when converting to Neutral alignment.

12-06-2013 07:09 AM

GordonOverkill GordonOverkill is offline

Ancient Member

Also got a "no" from me. In my eyes it would be somehow inadequat if the easiest and (from a practical point of view) best way to play a Chaos Knight would be to get rid of his most characteristic feature. I think it's appropriate that such an act is at least somehow painful to reach for the player... seriously, this guy's got "ChAoS" in his name ;-)

12-06-2013 07:47 AM

Deathwind

Member

I feel chaos knights don't need to change their ways, they just need a new way. Currently the ending makes zero sense for a chaos knight, your only choice is to wreck your gods plans or overthrow him. There needs to be some ways to assist him, some things that will aid the forces of chaos.

12-06-2013 07:55 AM

GordonOverkill GordonOverkill is offline

Ancient Member

Currently the ending makes zero sense for a chaos knight

That's true of course. With my chaos knights I also felt a strong urge to at least go for an ordinary chaos god ending, because everything else would just be plain stupid. In my eyes that's actually kind of an indication that the class was made for us experienced players mainly. You can use it for an ordinary ending, but like you say that's somehow not sattisfying ;-) Under this respect I also see their extraordinary early game and their random corruptions. The class (at least in the consequent chaotic play) forces experienced players to break with their routines and thus get some new excitement into their play. In my eyes that's a very cool thing and - like I said - I'd not like to see that being changed.

12-06-2013 07:59 AM

grobblewobble grobblewobble is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by GordonOverkill

I think it's appropriate that such an act is at least somehow painful to reach for the player...

Then please suggest a way to make it actually painful. Because keeping your finger on the '.' button for 1 minute is not.

12-06-2013 08:06 AM

GordonOverkill GordonOverkill is offline

Ancient Member

@ grobblewobble:
Sorry, don't have any good idea... apart from Stringray's suggestion that I somehow really like ;-)

12-06-2013 08:07 AM

Al-Khwarizmi Al-Khwarizmi is offline

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by Deathwind

+1 to this, I think I have said something similar in some other RFE.

12-06-2013 03:09 PM

Stingray1

Ancient Member

Originally Posted by grobblewobble

Then please suggest a way to make it actually painful. Because keeping your finger on the '.' button for 1 minute is not.

You mean ''', right? ;)

Originally Posted by Deathwind

I think an ending as I hinted at in my previous post where in the levers are made destructible would maybe be more fulfilling. I or someone must just think of a way to make the D:50 fight not just a 'dig to the levers' thing. I'll come back in a few.

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