TH sucks less than other talents

[JellySlayer]

I respectfully disagree. I much prefer barbarians and monks to wizards. Paladins and Priests are much better though.\

In the end, it all comes down to playstyle

I prefer other classes to wizards too. Archers and monks are by far my favourite classes. But that doesn't mean that I think those classes are easier to win with than wizards... they're just more fun. I think objectively it is pretty difficult to argue that wizards aren't the easiest class for the average player, consider that:

On the ADOM hall of fame, there are almost twice as many wizard wins (50 1.1.1 wins) as the next closest classes (fighter (somewhat surprising) at 27, barbarian at 26). 8 of the top 10 scores are wizards, and the 5 fastest games (<30000 turns) were also all wizards. Skimming through the YAVP posts at these forums, the majority of first wins were also by wizards. I'm not saying this is in any way representative of all people who play this game, but it certainly suggests that you're better off playing a wizard than most other classes if you're just trying to win.

As Epythic pointed out, wizards are also one of a very small number of classes who can safely kill monsters much stronger than their level to advance very quickly past through the points where the character is most vulnerable (eg. a level 1 wizard can confidently kill greater claw bugs for 1k+ experience each to level much faster than most other classes).

[mike]

I don't completely see why farmers are supposed to be so weak. They start with a fairly decent pet, which helps map SMC or prepare for kranach, starting weapon is decent, and they can even start with herbs in terinyo. I just rolled a quick one... killed a bandit, found stairs in SMC, etc. Average damage is 23(!). Only danger at this point is a stone block or viper trap.

   ###########
   #...../...#
   #...@d###.#
   #.....# #.#
   ####### #.#####################
           #....(...%............+
           #############......>..#
                       #.......(.#
                       ###########

McDonald         St:13  Le:12  Wi: 9  Dx:22  To:12  Ch:10  Ap:16  Ma:11  Pe:19 L
DV/PV: 6/0     H: 15(16)      P: 3(3)        Exp: 1/134         SMC   Sp: 97
Satiated Berserk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damage caused with your melee weapons:
--------------------------------------
?Right hand: ?+17? bonus to hit, ?2d6+16? damage
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 571 stones                Carrying capacity: 1300 stones
Head          : -
Neck          : -
Body          : -
Girdle        : -
Cloak         : -
Right Hand    : scythe (+2, 2d6+4) [-1, +0]                           [80s]
Left Hand     : -
Right Ring    : -
Left Ring     : -
Bracers       : -
Gauntlets     : -
Boots         : -
Missile weapon: -
Missiles      : -
Tool          : -


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total weight: 491 stones   Carrying capacity: 1300 stones

Helmets ('[')
   hood [+0, +0]                                                       [3s]
Armor ('[')
   clothes [+0, +0]                                                   [40s]
Boots ('[')
   sandals [+0, +0]                                                    [6s]
One-handed weapons ('(')
   spear                                                              [50s]
Two-handed weapons ('(')
   scythe                                                             [80s]
Tools (']')
   fletchery set (5)                                                  [70s]
   cooking set                                                       [100s]
Scrolls ('?')
   scroll of information                                               [2s]
   scroll of warning                                                   [2s]
Food ('%')
   iron ration                                                       [100s]
   heap of 3 herb seeds                                                [6s]
   herb seed                                                           [2s]
   heap of 8 plant seeds                                              [16s]
   plant seed                                                          [2s]
   heap of 4 loaves of elven bread                                    [12s]

[JellySlayer]

I would consider the 6 DV and 0 PV a bit of a problem too. If you miss with your scythe against the wrong monster, you're probably dead.

[Silfir]

True berserk doctrine here

Any farmer is almost a lock if he can get a couple of levels to raise Gardening (should be possible with true berserk, one pet and two prayers), then plant a spenseweed patch plus two others. Infinite blessed spenseweed for the rest of the game.

[Epythic]

Yes, wizards are ridiculously overpowered.

Agree. I like that

That does not in any way make the case for getting TH. You could win as a wizard by taking all of the WORST talents in the game (aside from the one that crashes ADOM, of course), and not notice any difference.

Disagree. Of course it's winnable, but I think TH makes it easier. More stuff.

I would never consider taking alert at level 1 so I could get TH at some level >20. If I get TH, I usually have it by level 9, 12 at the very latest. By the time you're level 20+, the main advantage to generating a larger amount of items (better preparation for the ToEF) is mostly past unless you plan to do a whole bunch of grinding once you get it. After the ToEF, you hit the casino, and beyond that, the need for more items really isn't that substantial. It's just minor improvements to the gear you already have.

Ok, maybe I somewhat agree, but then again; I just don't see enough better talents. And taking Alert early only pushes me back by one talent (= 3 levels).

If you mean that as in 'no bloody talents', then version 1.0.0 is very similar to the current incarnation of ADOM, except for the lack of the talent system.

Yep that's what I meant. Guess I'll have to try that someday. Or well, maybe not.

Some talents aren't bad, but the majority... the system could be vastly improved, let's put it that way.[/QUOTE]
Agree.

17 assumes one starting right?

Yes. I figured that would be the "worst case", as in "speaks against what I said".
If you get more than one starting talent - hell, one more reason to take Alert. Isn't it?


But then, most of the talent lists posted here look mostly reasonable to me (mhh, I probably wouldnt pick the speed talents; I like playing raven-borns).


When I began reading the first TH thread, I was neutral. I then converted to I-like-TH. Now I am back to neutral. Meh.

[JellySlayer]

Disagree. Of course it's winnable, but I think TH makes it easier. More stuff.

Wizards don't need much stuff to get powerful. Spellbooks can be found quite frequently on the floor of the ID, which is really all you need to get started. After that, even if your weapon/armor is junk, you can still mop the floor with most things. If you play a more combat-oriented wizard, then you might find treasure hunter a bit more useful. For a elf or gnome in particular, it probably has a negligible effect on your success. Sure TH will probably benefit you more than strong legs or affinity with thrown axes, but the strength of your class is probably enough to carry you through irrespective of your talent choices.

Ok, maybe I somewhat agree, but then again; I just don't see enough better talents. And taking Alert early only pushes me back by one talent (= 3 levels).

Well, for a class facing a tough early game (eg. merchants), you need every advantage you can get to get those first 3 levels. Again, once you're past level 15, the effects of the talents you take is really cosmetic, and none of the talents will really make a big difference. Having a few extra HP, PP, PV, or speed at level 1 could make a big difference. For characters with 1 starting talent, I really wouldn't consider doing the TH route unless I had a r/c combo that I was confident could survive the early game unassisted (wizards, most trolls, archers, some stronger warrior classes). Weaker characters really need all the help they can get early on, and TH just doesn't cut it. As I've said elsewhere, if you have multiple starting talents--particularly if you have 3 or more, then there isn't really any harm in taking alert unless you're one of the few classes with a really spectacular heir gift or something. Taking TH as a bard with 3 talents, for example, is borderline insane.

When I began reading the first TH thread, I was neutral. I then converted to I-like-TH. Now I am back to neutral. Meh.

When I starting following this, I was firmly in the TH camp. I took TH every game without really considering any other options. It's only been as a result of this discussion that I've started experimenting with playing without TH and I've definitely moved much closer to the non-TH camp. I still recognize its benefits and would prefer to play with it given the choice, but my philosophy has definitely gone to character survival as the primary benefit of talents. Treasure hunter is a convenience that is nice to have, but I won't hamstring myself by taking it on a weak class.

[gut]

I actually conceeded that TH doesn't suck some
months back. We just picked it up again 'cause
it was fun. I think this has actually been one of
the better challenges : )