TH sucks less than other talents

[Epythic]

But then - name three better talents.

Bonus points if you can name enough talents to get you to level 50 without taking something you find less useful than TH.

I still want an answer to this one.

Choose a race/class, then go here and pick up to 17 talents. At no time may you choose a talent that you consider of less value than TH (except Alert/Miser).

Noob faggots.

[Maul]

Melee Weapon Master & prerequisites. Any melee or strongly melee-oriented character, which for me includes but is not limited to: barbarians, beastfighters, fighters, most trolls.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and nobody cares about the others'.

[JellySlayer]

Epythic, the precise problem is any talents that you get beyond level ~15 are basically cosmetic. They are unlikely to make such a significant difference to overall gameplay that not having them will put your character at a huge disadvantage. By comparison, at level 1, having +3 health, or +1 To, or +2 speed, can make a large difference because the relative values of those talents are better. If you start with 15 hit points, the hardy skill gives a massive 17% increase over your base value. If you get 3 talents, the 18 hit point difference gives a colossal 117% increase in hit points. For a character with one starting talent, particularly a weak character with one starting talent, having to take alert over a talent that improves survival could make the game much more difficult.

For stronger starting characters, or if you have a couple of starting talents to take, it is not as much of a problem to take alert, since you still have at least one other talent to invest in survival. If you were not forced to take alert at the beginning, I would argue that there is no reason that any character should not get treasure hunter. However, being forced to take two talents that even you admit are useless in the critical early game is what creates the problem.

For the record:
1. Hardy
2. Tough Skin
3. Iron Skin
4. Steel Skin
5. Immune to Pain
6. Good Shot
7. Keen Shot
8. Eagle-Eyed
9. Quick Shot
10. Lightning Shot
11. Quick
12. Very Quick
13. Greased Lightning
14. Careful
15. Defensive Fighter
16. Dodger
17. Shield Specialist
18. Shield Expert
19. Shield Master
20. Porter
21. Master Packager
22. Beast of Burden
23. Long Stride

Many characters might also follow the book caster line, which requires 5 additional talents.

[Covenant]

It's a good point. Most of the talents in ADOM, well, suck. Not to say they're useless, but their benefit is marginal.

(As an aside, if the code ever is released, as much as there's the whole anti-variant vibe going on I personally wouldn't mind a variant with some more interesting talent choices).

[Epythic]

Epythic, the precise problem is any talents that you get beyond level ~15 are basically cosmetic. They are unlikely to make such a significant difference to overall gameplay that not having them will put your character at a huge disadvantage.

That's exactly my point. Pick Alert at the beginning, and Miser + TH at ~lvl20 or so.

That's the point when TH get's handy (due to exponential xp-level-curve you won't do that many kills before that; but when you get there you get lots of kills - think of greater vaults and evrything...).

What do you loose by taking Alert? One talent.
What do you get? More items. Only thing that matters, since you agree that talents are mostly worthless at that point.

Btw, you can get to level 12 or so in a couple of minutes (eg kill hotzenplotz, stuff like that)... [ok, I'm talking bout wizards. right.]


EDIT: Maul, dunno, maybe you are right, I never play melee PC's. As I said elsewhere, very much depends on class.
EDIT: Covenant, I wouldnt mind a variant with *no* stupid talents.

[JellySlayer]

Yes, wizards are ridiculously overpowered. That does not in any way make the case for getting TH. You could win as a wizard by taking all of the WORST talents in the game (aside from the one that crashes ADOM, of course), and not notice any difference.

I would never consider taking alert at level 1 so I could get TH at some level >20. If I get TH, I usually have it by level 9, 12 at the very latest. By the time you're level 20+, the main advantage to generating a larger amount of items (better preparation for the ToEF) is mostly past unless you plan to do a whole bunch of grinding once you get it. After the ToEF, you hit the casino, and beyond that, the need for more items really isn't that substantial. It's just minor improvements to the gear you already have.

[Covenant]

EDIT: Covenant, I wouldnt mind a variant with *no* stupid talents.

If you mean that as in 'no bloody talents', then version 1.0.0 is very similar to the current incarnation of ADOM, except for the lack of the talent system.

If you mean stupid talents as in talents that are stupid, well, since no one really picks those talents (who can remember the last time they went 'Ooh, 5% cheaper prayers!' or '+1 Appearance at the start, eh? Interesting'), there's not much point removing them without replacing them with something better.

Some talents aren't bad, but the majority... the system could be vastly improved, let's put it that way.

[F50]

Yes, wizards are ridiculously overpowered.

I respectfully disagree. I much prefer barbarians and monks to wizards. Paladins and Priests are much better though.\

In the end, it all comes down to playstyle

[Dawky]

Beastfighters FTW!

[Soirana]

17 assumes one starting right?

Assuming no Archery:
here we go:
1.Alert
2.Quick
3.Good shot.
4.Keen shot
5.Quick shot
6.Affinty with Bows
7.Aff with xbows
8.Aff with thrown spears
9.Missile weapon master
10.Very quick
11.Greased lightning
12.Shield specialist
13.Shield expert
14.Shield master
15.Careful
16.Defensive fighter
17.Weapon affinity most likely polearms.

In case of archery add eagle eyed and lightning shot.