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Thread: I ascended nethack! + Adom status

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    UK
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    Default I ascended nethack! + Adom status

    Hi all,

    Im back again

    As mentioned in the subject I have been playing nethack solid for the last few weeks and I actually after much reading and thinking tactics managed to ascend. Nh is the first roguelike ever that I have managed to ascend without save scumming. The thing is I was honest and said I scummed in Adom for learning purposes now while the game was still fun I have changed opinion(U turned) in that I now realise save scumming does ruin game

    Its been suggested to me by people on nethack irc that I would get more out Adom by not scumming so Im going to learn to play without scumming. (Im interested to know how many people realistically can/have completed/played this game with no scumming nor borderline cheat/exploits?

    If it can be done via game knowledge and skill and done so consistantly I want to non scum this game. (I love questing so it should top nethack, in fact I didnt see any good play in nethack until many tries of the game)

    Im also looking for other roguelikes which are as awesome as Adom or as near as damned it and are deep. Any ideas? (I have played a few of the obvious choices) Theres a vampire roguelike thats a remake of some game, I am not sure whether to bother with it? Its so hard to find quest based roguelikes for one , never mind ones like Adom where the play feels very diverse , has world maps and is non grindy owing to good dungeon design

    I liked Elona but it got to a point the grind was massive and you spent waaay to much time keeping fame down and some other significant annoyances.

    Thoughts on any of this?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Germany
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    77

    Default Scumming

    I began ADOM 6 or 7 years ago (with some pauses in between) . After 4 months of intense play I still didn't manage to get my characters any further, so one day I did some scumming to see the Arena, the Big Room and Thrundarr's Dwarven City. This was enough motivation to decide that this game was really worthy to play on. Nowadays I still haven't managed to beat the game - but most of my characters that survive the hell of the early game will see the Arena, the Big Room, Dwarven City, The Pyramid, The High Mountain Village, Darkforge. Some that survive the animated forest or the Dwarven halls will even have the luck to die in the Tower of Eternal Flames or the Caves near the piranha lake... Still I haven't reached the casino or further more than 4 or 5 times in my life, so I'm still far away from being an ADOM expert.

    So let me say this: beating ADOM with only "in game knowledge" seems to me near to impossible, but beating ADOM without scumming is possible - and to play without scumming is the only way to have the real fun out of it in the long term. Nevertheless some scumming now and then might be necessary, not to have a faked "Win" to post it here - but to have a source of motivation going on... I think that is ok.

    Personally - I use the guidebook for these reasons:

    1) to look up the alignement of monsters (important with sacrificing)
    2) to look up some food characteristics of monster corpses
    3) to look up the meaning of some armor/weapon- pre-or-suffixes

    The Game is still hard enough...

    Last time I saw the casino - the casino owner slayed me because of my bad charisma...

  3. #3
    nathrakh Guest

    Default

    Don't say only 'scumming' when you mean 'save scumming'.

    ADOM players think that scumming = many different things, like gremling bombing or dragon gold doubling. Not just save scumming (which is the most severe, except save-file editing, which is blocked by the game AFAIK, or editing your PC with some.. tools).

    edit: you must have had 'unholy aura' corruption. Shopkeepers don't like when you scare their customers...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    575

    Default On Scumming

    It's not an evil thing. SAVE scumming, IMO, invalidates a win, because
    it removes one of the challenges the game is meant to impose on you.
    However, sipping from every pool you find, obsessively farming herbs
    till you have enough stomafillia to feed the entirety of ancardia for
    the next decade, etc. these things are usually filed under "scumming",
    but they are -not- inherently evil. Not even when used all together
    are they evil.* And to me, farming herbs till my eyes bleed is fun, so
    long as I don't have teleportitis.

    One thing to remember - don't tell people which "scummy" methods
    they can and can't use to "enjoy the game". The ID has a reason,
    it was not put there by some random modder: to find items, monsters
    and XP that you might need. There's a reason herbs grow back. There
    is a reason you can sip from all the pools you want with a ring of
    teleport control in your backpack and an altar 3 floors away: so that
    you have more chances to take a step toward, or away from, victory.

    Apologies if this sounds rude, but this line

    "Nevertheless some scumming now and then might be necessary,
    not to have a faked 'Win'"

    Is rather ambiguous. Also apologies if you are in fact only referring
    to save scumming.
    Code:
    Really kick the child? [y/N]
    
    ..........
    ....@.....
    ....t.....
    ..........
    Yo dawg I heard you like buffalo so I put buffalo in your Buffalo now you can buffalo Buffalo buffalo while your Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo!

    Ultras: GE Farmer, Hurthling Thief, Orc Weaponsmith
    Wins: HE Priest, GE Wizard, Human Necromancer, Gnome Elementalist, HE barbarian, Gnome Mindcrafter, Hurthling Paladin, Troll Healer

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,649

    Default

    I also ascended nethack a few times, before getting bored and passing on to adom. I think i might take it again one day, but i remember that i got so bored i tried to become an extinctionnist
    Haven't won with : Druid, Priest, Elementalist, Weaponsmith, Ranger, Merchants, farmers, Necromancer,Thief
    Currently trying : Entertaining girlfriend. Very, Very, VERY hard.

    Just a silly online game

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    575

    Default

    Amg nathrakh, get outta my mind D: *tin foil hat*
    Code:
    Really kick the child? [y/N]
    
    ..........
    ....@.....
    ....t.....
    ..........
    Yo dawg I heard you like buffalo so I put buffalo in your Buffalo now you can buffalo Buffalo buffalo while your Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo!

    Ultras: GE Farmer, Hurthling Thief, Orc Weaponsmith
    Wins: HE Priest, GE Wizard, Human Necromancer, Gnome Elementalist, HE barbarian, Gnome Mindcrafter, Hurthling Paladin, Troll Healer

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Canada
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    1,099

    Default

    Save scumming does have its purposes as a learning tool imo. Without the ability to ask the internets back in the day (dad said, "get off the internet, I'm waiting for a phone call"), I relied on my two sources of ADOM info: my buddy Corey who introduced me to the game and save scumming. Even then, I never got a character past level 25.

    However, recently, I have sworn off save scumming for good. It makes the game a lot more fun and exciting. It's bad for me because I don't play as cautious as I know I should in ADOM and often end up being careless and dying.

    As for other forms of "scumming", I've done them all. Dragon gold doubling, mass pick pocketting, ID farming, wish engines, other less scummy tactics that others would call scummy (hmmmm, this scribbled scroll looks empty... let's read it a couple thousand times to train my Literacy). After the first time I did some of them, I got a bad taste in my mouth and swore off using those tactics for good (wish engine being one of these. It totally wrecked my game to have 40+ socr.)

    What I recommend to anyone is play the game with all the scummy tactics you could imagine. Once you beat the game with these scummy tactics, remove some of the ones you felt were completely retarded (gremlin bonging for example) and beat the game again. Eventually, you will run out of scummy tactics to remove at which point you can begin applying restrictions to your games such as "illiterate" or "athiest" or whatever you want. You could even pretend to be Jellyslayer and play Doomed characters.

    Long story short: Scum until you are good enough not to need to scum.
    I said it before, and I'll say it again. If I knew scripture like you, I'd prolly be an athiest too.. -gut

     /l、
    (゚、 。 7  
     l、 ~ヽ   
     じしf_, )ノ

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    5,067

    Default

    > that I would get more out Adom by not scumming

    Your heart will never pound in your chest if you know
    that resurection is just a click away.

    > how many people realistically can/have completed/played
    > this game with no scumming nor borderline cheat/exploits?

    I did. Once. Honestly, it's not hard to win ADOM, after
    you get just a few pieces of vital info. Chose a powerhouse
    PC, not a thief/merchant. Skip the quests you don't need
    to complete to close the gate. Use herbs to pump stats, and
    get your crowning. Know the tactics for beating the Ancient
    Chaos Wyrm and the Archmage.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Esslingen, Germany
    Posts
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    Default

    You can play any way you want as long as you don't die. Boredom is deadly.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    UK
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    Default

    Thanks all,

    Just to clarify, I was in no way shape or form advocating save scumming nor scumming , nor was I NOT advocating it Im a strong believer in, to each his own! Adom is a single player game therefore any person online who does whatever to their game doesnt affect me and Its not my job to police people, Too much of that going on throughout the web in many other contexts! However for me to elaborate on this would be waaay of topic! :P

    I was just wanting to share with you guys how I totally was personally all for save scumming and now how I am only settling for playing the game without doing this, Im surprised I have even got to this way of thinking hehe

    In hindsite, considerating to scum or not to scum doesnt get me in the least bit emotional because I dont care that much about either; this makes me able to objectively say It may have a place for people want to learn a roguelike so well they are analagous to a powergamer/good gamer . I think personally that the key to having the most fun is to use save scumming to push the boundry of your playing just enough so that you know whats ahead and how fit or unfit your gear is, I did this in nethack wizard mode, I thought there was no way I would do it and I went to the official online server and within one week completed the game legit. My win happened because of :

    1: Good information given from other players
    2: Experience of dangerous mobs ahead in the game in advance so I could pre-plan and when playing legit I didnt get disheartened , bored as I knew when to run

    Btw I used wizard mode in nethack 3 times and never went passed the end of early game as I didnt want to get bored e.g getting attacked by hordes dieing and immediatly having full hp at that spot, it is fin the first couple of times but I reckon extremes would cause bordem and thats either scumming extreme or swing to the other extreme and saying, ow thou must not be spoiled even .1% etc

    I actually think let people play the rls the way they want to so long as its not affecting others but all Im saying is I am going to try and not keep my saves.

    Fun is key, do whatever it takes to have fun with the game and obviously for differant people this will well unsurprisingly be diverse :P << not just rereading this, man thats profound! :P << thats J/K at my expense btw !

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