Ancient Member
-I restocked a potion shop early on a couple times
-I pickpocketted quite a bit early on
-I used ~300k worth of Casino gold to buy some items
-scummy
-scummy
-exploity
low risk, repetitive action = grindy/scummy
I couldn't even convince myself to use casino gold as part of
my speedrun archmage nonsense.
merchants are meant to be scummed. that's why they have
pickpockets, gemology, shop lovin', etc...
"Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."
Ancient Member
Treasure Hunter costs three talents and is supposed to give you more items. Pick Pockets costs nothing and creates items out of thin air, no downside. Starting from how many extra items pickpocketed would you consider the effect "broken"?
The claim you can't win with an orcish merchant without "scumming" (as opposed to non-sucky characters like, say, gray elven wizards) is everything from completely bollocks to obviously true, depending on your definition of scumming. There is plenty of stuff in here that would be called scumming by someone else; if all of that would be accepted then this orcish merchant is about as "scum-free" as... something that is really full of scum? (The French national football squad, ho ho ho.) If we go by "really broken abusable shit" then it's completely bollocks; there's nothing egregious in there except possibly for that "quite a bit", but when it comes right down to it I trust JellySlayer to be able to assess how much Pickpocketing enters complete abuse territory.
I recently finished a merchant myself and I don't think I engaged in much of the egregious scumming sort (okay, there was copious herb gathering involved, but then again I never abuse starvation or sickness).
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Ancient Member
I suppose I'll elaborate on my use of pickpockets and the potion shop:
The potion shop was on PC:1. I looted it once with a pot of invis. The shop restocked while I was still on the level, but the shopkeeper didn't let me invis anything, so I bought a bunch of items (basically everything... prices were cheap and most low DL potions are good at that point in the game). I descended and finished the PC. On the way back up, I passed the shop and found that it had restocked again, so I bought everything. I don't believe I visited the shop again beyond that.
For pickpockets, it's probably borderline. I don't typically pickpocket at extremely low (<6) levels normally, so I probably didn't use it much until I started the UD. There, I probably used it on most mobs I felt it safe to use against. I don't count out thirty mobs exactly, but a UD run typically gives more than enough. I also usually make an effort to pickpocket all of safe monsters in the Griffyard, since the DL there is abnormally high and I've occasionally pulled some very nice out of depth items (eg. rings of slaying, WoW) there. Those were the only places that I used PP intensively. I used it now and then in other areas, I guess. I don't really keep track; when I get into doing something I tend to forget about using PP, and then I'll open a tension room of kobold and think "Oh, I should PP these guys", do that, and probably not PP again for 30 minutes.
The term "Scum-free" is probably too loaded to use, but it's far less cumbersome to write as a catch all for "Non-herb, non-prayer, non-ID, non dragon doubling, non gremlin bombing, non...." game. Yes, I used PP more than the minimum required to get Detect Traps and Open Locks. No, I don't feel that it made a difference in the overall result of the game in any sense.
[edit]Honestly, I'm quite happy at managing to finish the game without using herbs, which is a definite first for me. Although to be fair, SinsI let me off a bit easy by choosing a race with high starting To. Doing this challenge as high elf thief would be a little more difficult.
Last edited by JellySlayer; 06-15-2010 at 03:57 PM.
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
Senior Member
Please, post the full kill list - right now you've shown only a tiny portion of those 3.8k monsters... In playing melee, every monster is important.
Jellies/oozes are the obvious interesting opponents that have stopped my merchants numerous times.
Summoning monsters are a big problem too.
Karmics are not since you can always fling the bling (use gold missiles).
Let's see...+3PV + helmet + 19 Toughness + Candle is enough to completely cover all of early levels. (Except for Small cave, but if stairs weren't that far it is only a mediocre risk).
By definition scummy is: no or low risk, repetitive actions, big gains.
So Casino is a full-blown scum, as well as pickpocketing... Merchants get especially much from tons of extra potions with their complete auto identify.
14 levels of active pp by a low-exp gain race in UD + a couple of buyouts should've given you more than extra 50 of those...
poExchange can remove almost every threat, invis covers the rest...
And massive potions of booze abuse (+ approprate wands) makes you not that much different from wizard.
Herbs could give you what, +6 to 3 stats? Couple of poStat or poGA more than counterbalances herb training. It's stomafillia pre/post/crowning that is scummy.
Last edited by SinsI; 06-16-2010 at 01:38 AM.
Ancient Member
I will post the full list tomorrow when I have access to the .vlg, this isn't my regular PC. Jellies I have plenty of kills; there was a vault of green/gray oozes and gelatenous cubes in UD that I cleared mostly by blinging.Originally Posted by SinsI
I've noted dark elves, jackalweres, chaos wizards (and one master lich) already. I don't recall seeing many werewolf lords or other major summoners.
I think the SMC stairs were basically a straight run across bottom of the level. You picked race/class, so don't complain about starting stats; 19 To and 3 PV is typical for an orc merchant. Candle + potion is a 1/48 probability roll, so I'm not inclined to spend a whole lot of time looking for better stats.
Never found invis ring until around D:40; never saw a cloak. I ran DH the first time through--had a few charges of teleport wand (VDDL) and control that I used once or twice to get away from an ancient karmic dragon and a greater fire elemental.
PoEX are pretty rare, and don't work well unless blessed. I think I may have found four the whole game. Two were used on cats. One was wasted trying to polymorph some boots into 7lbs. Don't remember using any others. I used a handful of pots of invis at a few points in the game. Maybe 5 pots used? 10? No more than that. Regardless, using available resources is not, in and of itself, scummy.
Thread under discussion didn't mention Casino gold. I was strong enough at that point that it didn't make much difference (the dragon vault lower down had much better rewards anyway), but I'll concede the point--Casino is broken.
As far as PP is concerned, well, my personal feeling is that its effect is pretty minimal, but I understand that others may disagree.
Since I'm a nice guy, and I like merchants, I'll concede that this game isn't completely scum-free. But I'm willing to fix that. I'll roll up a high elf merchant (for low To and crappy starting gear). Random, non-Candle, non-Raven starsign. Random, non-potion specialization. No PP, even to get access to thief skills. No Casino unless I rob it. No shop restocks. Plus all of the other restrictions from this game. That should fit the bill pretty well. Give me a couple days to figure it out
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
Ancient Member
Here's my first iteration. No guarantee I'll do it in one go, of course.
[edit]Dead trying to kill carpenter. Next.Code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Screenshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ^^^^^ ^^@.^ ^..^^ .^^ Sinsi-2 St:12 Le:14 Wi: 9 Dx:22 To:12 Ch:13 Ap:15 Ma:13 Pe:18 L DV/PV: 16/0 H: 16(16) P: 4(4) Exp: 1/0 DrCh Sp: 102 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Character Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sinsi-2 St:12 Le:14 Wi: 9 Dx:22 To:12 Ch:13 Ap:15 Ma:13 Pe:18 L DV/PV: 16/0 H: 16(16) P: 4(4) Exp: 1/0 M: 0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Background Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Sinsi-2 Race: female High Elf Class: Merchant Eye color: amber Hair color: black Complexion: light Height: 5'9" Weight: 105 pounds Age: 211 (grown-up) Star sign: Dragon Birthday: 17/Dragon (day 167 of the year) YOUR HISTORY: Your parents were poor people. They loved you and cared for you, although you had to hunger more than once. As a child you lived through happy days. Your parents tried to ease your life as much as possible and gave you a lot of comfort. During your youth you were very lazy. You slept a lot and didn't care too much for your duties and tasks. Your parents were not very happy with you. As a young adult you had to work a lot to finance your apprenticeship. You were often tired and exhausted but all this was forgotten, when you finally achieved your goal. You decided to become a Merchant. During your apprenticeship you specialized on enchanted rings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Weapon Skills ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks --------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- -------------- Unarmed fighting 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Daggers & knives 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Clubs & hammers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Maces & flails 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Swords 2 +2 +0 +0 basic 36 Axes 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Whips 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Pole arms 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Twohanded weapons 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Staves 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 14 Missile weapon Lvl Hit Dam Ra Level Required marks --------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- -------------- Slings 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Bows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Crossbows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown axes & hammers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown daggers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown rocks & clubs 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown spears 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Boomerangs & scurgari 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Shields Lvl DV Level Required marks --------------------- --- --- ------------- -------------- Shields 0 +0 unskilled 14 Damage caused with your melee weapons: -------------------------------------- ?Right hand: ?+2? bonus to hit, ?1d6+0? damage Damage caused with your missile weapons: ---------------------------------------- No missile weapons available. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skills ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appraising ................ 42 (fair) [+4d5] Climbing .................. 25 (mediocre) [+4d4] Detect item status ........ 19 (mediocre) [+3d4] Dodge ..................... 25 (mediocre) [+3d3] First aid ................. 24 (mediocre) [+3d4] Gemology .................. 30 (mediocre) [+4d5] Haggling .................. 54 (good) [+4d4] Herbalism ................. 14 (mediocre) [+4d5] Listening ................. 46 (fair) [+3d4] Literacy .................. 64 (good) [+2d4] Metallurgy ................ 23 (mediocre) [+4d5] Pick pockets .............. 35 (fair) [+4d5] Stealth ................... 22 (mediocre) [+3d4] Survival .................. 35 (fair) [+3d4] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inventory ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total weight: 214 stones Carrying capacity: 1200 stones Head : - Neck : - Body : clothes [+0, +0] [40s] Girdle : - Cloak : - Right Hand : short sword (+0, 1d6) [30s] Left Hand : - Right Ring : - Left Ring : ring of the fish [1s] Bracers : - Gauntlets : - Boots : leather boots [+0, +0] [25s] Missile weapon: - Missiles : - Tool : - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total weight: 118 stones Carrying capacity: 1200 stones Rings ('=') wedding ring [1s] ring of stun resistance [1s] ring of searching [1s] heap of 2 rings of fire resistance [2s] heap of 2 rings of cold resistance [2s] ring of damage [1s] Food ('%') iron ration [100s] Valuables ('$') 1095 gold pieces [10s] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Killed Monsters ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- She did not manage to vanquish any monsters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Achievements ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- She survived for 0 years, 0 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes and 0 seconds (0 turns). Sinsi-2 visited 1 place. Her perception score was modified by +1 during her career.
Last edited by JellySlayer; 06-16-2010 at 02:58 AM.
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
Ancient Member
Attempt 2 [edit]Dead
Attempt 3
Code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Screenshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ^^^^^ ^^@.^ ^..^^ .^^ Sinsi-2 St:12 Le:14 Wi:12 Dx:19 To:13 Ch:11 Ap:17 Ma:15 Pe:20 L DV/PV: 16/0 H: 18(18) P: 4(4) Exp: 1/0 DrCh Sp: 102 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Character Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sinsi-2 St:12 Le:14 Wi:12 Dx:19 To:13 Ch:11 Ap:17 Ma:15 Pe:20 L DV/PV: 16/0 H: 18(18) P: 4(4) Exp: 1/0 M: 0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Background Information ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Sinsi-2 Race: female High Elf Class: Merchant Eye color: amber Hair color: black Complexion: light Height: 5'11" Weight: 110 pounds Age: 211 (grown-up) Star sign: Book Birthday: 30/Book (day 60 of the year) YOUR HISTORY: Your parents were poor people. They loved you and cared for you, although you had to hunger more than once. As a child you lived through happy days. Your parents tried to ease your life as much as possible and gave you a lot of comfort. In your youth you enjoyed competition against others to the fullest. You were a very active kid. As a young adult you had to work a lot to finance your apprenticeship. You were often tired and exhausted but all this was forgotten, when you finally achieved your goal. You decided to become a Merchant. During your apprenticeship you specialized on enchanted rings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Weapon Skills ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks --------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- -------------- Unarmed fighting 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Daggers & knives 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Clubs & hammers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Maces & flails 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Swords 2 +2 +0 +0 basic 40 Axes 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Whips 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Pole arms 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Twohanded weapons 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Staves 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 15 Missile weapon Lvl Hit Dam Ra Level Required marks --------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- -------------- Slings 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Bows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Crossbows 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown axes & hammers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown daggers 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown rocks & clubs 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Thrown spears 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Boomerangs & scurgari 0 +0 +0 +0 unskilled 7 Shields Lvl DV Level Required marks --------------------- --- --- ------------- -------------- Shields 0 +0 unskilled 15 Damage caused with your melee weapons: -------------------------------------- ÆRight hand: Î+2Æ bonus to hit, Î1d6+0Æ damage Damage caused with your missile weapons: ---------------------------------------- No missile weapons available. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skills ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appraising ................ 38 (fair) [+4d5] Climbing .................. 30 (mediocre) [+3d5] Detect item status ........ 19 (mediocre) [+3d4] Dodge ..................... 27 (mediocre) [+3d3] First aid ................. 26 (mediocre) [+3d4] Gemology .................. 35 (fair) [+4d5] Haggling .................. 57 (good) [+4d4] Herbalism ................. 10 (poor) [+4d5] Listening ................. 50 (fair) [+3d3] Literacy .................. 72 (great) [+1d5] Metallurgy ................ 28 (mediocre) [+4d5] Pick pockets .............. 30 (mediocre) [+4d5] Stealth ................... 22 (mediocre) [+3d4] Survival .................. 27 (mediocre) [+3d5] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inventory ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total weight: 212 stones Carrying capacity: 1200 stones Head : - Neck : - Body : clothes [+0, +0] [40s] Girdle : - Cloak : - Right Hand : short sword (+0, 1d6) [30s] Left Hand : - Right Ring : - Left Ring : ring of fire resistance [1s] Bracers : - Gauntlets : - Boots : leather boots [+2, +0] [25s] Missile weapon: - Missiles : - Tool : - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total weight: 116 stones Carrying capacity: 1200 stones Rings ('=') ring of defense +1 [1s] ring of fire resistance [1s] ring of defense +1 [1s] ring of acid resistance [1s] heap of 2 rings of acid resistance [2s] Food ('%') iron ration [100s] Valuables ('$') 1056 gold pieces [10s] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Killed Monsters ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- She did not manage to vanquish any monsters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Achievements ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- She survived for 0 years, 0 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes and 0 seconds (0 turns). Sinsi-2 visited 1 place. Her perception score was modified by +1 during her career.
Last edited by JellySlayer; 06-16-2010 at 03:01 AM.
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
Ancient Member
Update: Currently in UD. PC, VD done. Jharod dead, puppy dead. Have teleport control, fate, a few other intrinsics. DF raided, little good there. Have done CoC as far as DH/AF split. Looking for quasit for Thrundarr.
.vlg attached.
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
Ancient Member
Update 2: Here's my pre-ToEF kit. Just got crowned with =Fire and boots of divine messenger. I have a half decent selection of spells thanks to some favourable drops and a bookstore that I perused (only once). Most of them I actually just learned, since I just grabbed CoS recently.
I've been down as far as the wall of flames, killed Khelly. Pyramid and Griffyard done. Arena bonus round done (including an ancient white dragon and chaos warrior), as well as all dwarf quests. High kings is only outstanding pre-ToEF area. Might do that first to have the opportunity to train frost bolt up a bit. Full .vlg enclosed.
Code:------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Screenshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .............. .............. ............... ............... ................... ............T........ ..@.................... ......................== .......................== .....T.......T......===== .......................... ....................====== ........@............====== ....................======= .........T............===== .....T.........T.........= .......................... ......................... ......................... ........................ Sinsi-2 St:22 Le:23 Wi:19 Dx:17 To:26 Ch:22 Ap: 7 Ma:18 Pe:21 N= DV/PV: 36/34 H: 229(229) P: 70(70) Exp: 21/750705 CCL Sp: 106 Blessed ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spells ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Calm Monster : 390, 8pp (Effectivity: +0) Cure Critical Wounds: 142, 15pp (Effectivity: +0) Darkness : 62, 5pp (Effectivity: +2) Farsight : 378, 17pp (Effectivity: +0) Frost Bolt : 336, 12pp (Effectivity: +0) Invisibility : 453, 10pp (Effectivity: +0) Knock : 270, 12pp (Effectivity: +0) Magic Lock : 237, 8pp (Effectivity: +0) Slow Poison : 140, 6pp (Effectivity: +0) Strength of Atlas : 172, 10pp (Effectivity: +0) Teleportation : 233, 22pp (Effectivity: +0) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Effects of Corruption ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your skin is covered by tough scales (PV: +8, Dx: -6, Ap: -4). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inventory ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total weight: 4220 stones Carrying capacity: 9800 stones Head : uncursed mithril cap [+0, +2] [40s] Neck : uncursed ankh [3s] Body : uncursed ancient mummy wrapping [+1, +5] {Ap-8} [60s] Girdle : blessed girdle of carrying [+0, +0] [15s] Cloak : - Right Hand : blessed lead-filled mace "Big Punch" (+1, 8d5+3) [-6, +0] Left Hand : uncursed tower mithril shield (-2) [+9, +5] [120s] Right Ring : uncursed ring of damage [1s] Left Ring : uncursed ring of mental stability [+0, +1] {Le+1} [1s] Bracers : uncursed bracers of toughness [+0, +0] {To+6} [10s] Gauntlets : uncursed elemental gauntlets (-1, +0) [+0, +3] [10s] Boots : blessed boots of the divine messenger [+3, +3] {Dx+5} [25s] Missile weapon: blessed heavy crossbow (+3, +3) [140s] Missiles : bundle of 11 blessed quarrels (+2, 2d6) [22s] Tool : -
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
Senior Member
I won't really be impressed until you don't get crowned, having lots of stuff to sac at any point is scummy. PC is scummy- there is a guaranteed lesser vault, for crying out loud. Lots of free rocks. If fact, any game that involves going anywhere besides CoC and ToEF is scummy. Because you don't have to it and it makes you stronger.
Overheat's Official-ish Scum List
Tier One-Messing with files//Save scumming---Evil, die, die, die
Tier Two-Piety Overflow//Ring Wish Engine---Severe bug abuse
Tier Three-Dragon Gold Doubling//Severe Casino Abuse---Lots of money for infinite prayers and going to L+
Tier Four-Casino+Garth//Sickness-Starvation Herbs//BUGWIL at low levels//RoW---Mention this in YAVP
Tier Five-Regular Herbs//ID Stairhop//Pick Pockets//DF Raid---Whatever
Tier Six-Everything less---Stop complaining, you whiners
For me, Tier One is fail. Tier two is on the edge, but I will relent for Ultra Illiterate Platinums. Tier three and below is a full win.
Closers- GE Wizard, DE Beastfighter, DE Barb
Ultras- DE Barb ULE
OCG- Maybe someday
ADOM projects- Overheat style LP -maybe.
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