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Thread: Evolutionism vs creationism

  1. #301
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    I still don't understand that God knowing what you will choose equates no free will and predestination.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albahan View Post
    I still don't understand that God knowing what you will choose equates no free will and predestination.
    Well, suppose you will be faced with a situation where you can choose either A or B. God knows a priori that you will pick B. Given this, is it possible that, when you reach that situation, you will choose A, even though God knows you will choose B? If so, what does that say about God's omniscience? If not, how is it any different from the situation where choice A was completely unavailable to you? If God knows what you will do in advance, then you are essentially deterministic: you can do nothing but follow the path that God has foreseen for you. From the moment you are born/created, God knows whether or not you will ultimately end up in heaven or in hell. How can your choices possibly influence that outcome?
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  3. #303
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    *Pops in*
    Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
    Well, suppose you will be faced with a situation where you can choose either A or B. God knows a priori that you will pick B. Given this, is it possible that, when you reach that situation, you will choose A, even though God knows you will choose B? If so, what does that say about God's omniscience?
    That omniscience is crap? two reasons : first, if god knew everything, he'd be pretty damn bored. Second : if god knows everything, he cannot learn. therefore god, if omniscient, is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
    How can your choices possibly influence that outcome?
    Because if you make the assumption that this hypotesis is true, you wouldn't bother living a life of work. Since you CANNOT know werether or not it is true, then it's best for your sanity and $ status to work daily, have children ect. People who do nothing are called vegetables, and the only purpose of vegetables is food.
    Haven't won with : Druid, Priest, Elementalist, Weaponsmith, Ranger, Merchants, farmers, Necromancer,Thief
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  4. #304
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    The bad point in this arguments is the world 'choose'. Is your choice free, or God makes it for you, or there are something bigger than just 'choice' and 'determinism'? Have no idea about how it works IRL (and no clear ideas about God's will), but in deep deep physics there are some strong experiments about choice. Two photons makes their properties connected without (faster) any real interaction. The conventional solution of this problem is that there are something bigger than just two photons and the vacuum between them. So even physics laws are much more complex than we can make it in worlds - such terms as 'time', 'experiment' and 'choice' have more than just conventional meanings, so make philosophical conclusions based on this worlds seems to be a kind of mistake.

    In short terms - JellySlayer has written an interesting post, but its logic couldn't pretend on a complete solution of the problem.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebrather View Post
    The bad point in this arguments is the world 'choose'. Is your choice free, or God makes it for you, or there are something bigger than just 'choice' and 'determinism'? Have no idea about how it works IRL (and no clear ideas about God's will), but in deep deep physics there are some strong experiments about choice. Two photons makes their properties connected without (faster) any real interaction. The conventional solution of this problem is that there are something bigger than just two photons and the vacuum between them. So even physics laws are much more complex than we can make it in worlds - such terms as 'time', 'experiment' and 'choice' have more than just conventional meanings, so make philosophical conclusions based on this worlds seems to be a kind of mistake.
    It's not clear to me what you think quantum superposition has to do with the idea of choice. I am using the term 'choice', for the record, to describe a situation where an individual is faced with several options that lead to different outcomes, and is sufficiently able to distinguish between those options to select the one that is most preferable. I distinguish this from a 'free choice' which is a choice that is made without force or coercion being applied by an external agent to influence the selection process.

    Unrelated: in the vein of link-dropping, I heartily recommend this deconversion video series as a fascinating and empathetic description of the process through which a born-again Christian can ultimately become an atheist. Be advised that the whole series runs well over an hour (but is well worth it).
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  6. #306
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    quantum physics abuse the world 'choice' strongly, but IMHO if smbd makes a decision, like in your example - preferable B or A, there are interesting question: That force can makes him to choose A instead of B (i stand that choosing B is better for this person, that is why God knows he will choose B)? This point IMHO is near the 'quantum choice' question, then decision you make depends on random processes (in human brain etc).
    And after that, random processes occurs to be quantum. And then the frog dive in the pool. Who is responsible for random decisions? Or for smbd who see more this decisions are not random? (just like the side of falling coin depends strongly from billions factors but truly are not random).

    but to be true Im not fully understand how this problem can be connected with religion. (and question of God existence).

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebrather View Post
    but to be true Im not fully understand how this problem can be connected with religion. (and question of God existence).
    Technically, Random things happen. There are factors who make a radioactive disintegration more likely to happen, but "god plays with dices".
    As for religion, it really is a matter of being controlled by another being.
    Haven't won with : Druid, Priest, Elementalist, Weaponsmith, Ranger, Merchants, farmers, Necromancer,Thief
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  8. #308
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    Oh. As i tried to notice in #304 random things become truly determined than you (or smbd) watch them (just like this pure cat ^_^).
    So if random things (not only radioactivity but also every quantum process) exists can not them be really determined for 'God'? Just because he is watching on everything?

    So if the 'God' exist (means smbd, who knows much if not everything about all this stuff) there are no problems with his forecasts about humans behavior in 'choice situations'. And in human world random processes gives us to be free from determinism while for 'God's level' our actions are kind of program.
    Just like ADOM RNG god is not a random to be true, and can be abused using pseudoRNG =)

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebrather View Post
    And in human world random processes gives us to be free from determinism while for 'God's level' our actions are kind of program.
    God would suicide if he knew everything. boredom is incredibly powerful
    Haven't won with : Druid, Priest, Elementalist, Weaponsmith, Ranger, Merchants, farmers, Necromancer,Thief
    Currently trying : Entertaining girlfriend. Very, Very, VERY hard.

    Just a silly online game

  10. #310
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    Oh, incredibly powerful arguments.
    Boredom can go out to be animal instinct, that has no relation with God.

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