Evolutionism vs creationism

[Albahan]

I'd say purgatory is more of a "Purging" than a waiting room. Besides in purgatory there is nothing to base time off of so theoretically you wouldn't be 'waiting' at all.

Jellyslayer: I understand where your coming from and your viewpoints and I can understand why you turned away from Christianity but there are a few things you should consider.

"I'm being blamed for something I didn't do" Well actually if you were in Adam and Eve's place of being completely innocent and without sin you would have also succumbed to the temptation of the devil to eat the fruit. I believe Adam and Eve to be a metaphor for every man and woman meaning that any man or woman that was like them would have made the exact same choice.

Another thing to remember is that the instant you sin or do something wrong you're already forgiven by God. However people have a very hard time believing this and accepting it. The God I believe in is very forgiving and accepting. He doesn't punish us for anything we don't or wouldn't do.

As for Christ you say God is immoral for having His son die for the sins of man but what you fail to recognize is that Christ is a part of God they are 1 in the same so in a way its as though God died for our sins. It was the greatest act of mercy due to man's natural inclination to give into temptation basically telling us that as long as we accept him and realize our imperfections that He will show mercy upon us and let us into heaven. No one can say for sure who is going to Hell and who isn't because we don't know the limits of God's mercy.

[garyd]

Basic Chrisitianity put in as simple and straight forwar away as I can manage.:

1. Sin is selfishness. Therefore anytime you put your self, your needs, or your feelings first you have sinned.
Also no one then goes to hell for anything they didn't do. We drop out the shoot selfish and damn few of us get a hell of a lot better over time.

2. No good thing you do makes you one whit less guilty of the bad things you have done. Karma has no place in Christianity and is not really logical in any case.

3. Salvation is what God does and is in no way is due to the actions of men. And thank God for that, if heaven is peopled by braggarts telling of all the wonderful things they've done then give me hell.

4. Hell is hell not because of the heat, which is, in certain ways, more of a last mercy than a punishment, but because there are absolutely no illusions and the question, "Why me?" is seldom asked more than once for in hell it is not a rhetorical question and always gets an answer in great detail.

5.Godly works are the joyful response to a salvation already vouchsafed not the coin by which salvation is purchased.

[gut]

> The New Testament includes

I said 'parts in red'.

> the sections on human sacrifice (of Christ),

As was already stated, jesus = god. Besides... he came back.

> hereditary sin, and eternal judgment, all of
> which I consider to be pretty malevolent ideas.

Again, god may consider things quite differently that a human.

> I didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That's a weak argument. If god did create earth, you, and
everything else, you have no right to wine about what he
does or doesn't allocate to you or for what reasons. It's
his world, he can do what he likes with it. You wanna have
things your way, go create yer own universe.

Who knows? Maybe Earth is something of a testing grounds for
souls. Maybe god wants to know which ones are worth keeping
and which ones are go to the bin. You go around killing,
stealing, treating everyone like crap, you get dusted.

[JellySlayer]

I said 'parts in red'.

The words of Jesus only make up a small fragment of the New Testament. Most of the New Testament is the words of Paul, if anything.

> the sections on human sacrifice (of Christ),

As was already stated, jesus = god. Besides... he came back.

Just because God sacrificed himself to Himself doesn't make the idea of Him perfoming human sacrifice less abhorrent. More pointless, maybe.

> hereditary sin, and eternal judgment, all of
> which I consider to be pretty malevolent ideas.

Again, god may consider things quite differently that a human.

> I didn't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That's a weak argument. If god did create earth, you, and
everything else, you have no right to wine about what he
does or doesn't allocate to you or for what reasons. It's
his world, he can do what he likes with it. You wanna have
things your way, go create yer own universe.

Who knows? Maybe Earth is something of a testing grounds for
souls. Maybe god wants to know which ones are worth keeping
and which ones are go to the bin. You go around killing,
stealing, treating everyone like crap, you get dusted.

This may be the case. But if it is, I stand by my contention a God that would do things in such a manner is, by the moral reasoning that He apparently gave me to judge such things, objectively evil. We certainly would never treat each other as cruelly or illogically as God treats us. We aren't as brutal to our children as He is to his creation. We don't design laws as that are as unjust as the ones that He created. God seems to spent an awful lot of His time killing, stealinng, and treating everyone like crap. If the Bible is correct, then God is a sadist and tyrant, deserving neither of praise, nor of worship, nor of thanks.

"I'm being blamed for something I didn't do" Well actually if you were in Adam and Eve's place of being completely innocent and without sin you would have also succumbed to the temptation of the devil to eat the fruit. I believe Adam and Eve to be a metaphor for every man and woman meaning that any man or woman that was like them would have made the exact same choice.

Convicting someone for a crime that they might hypothetically have done is still immoral. And then, too, while I know that you personally didn't raise this point, I would contend that if all humans would have made the same choice as Adam and Eve, then clearly the issue had nothing to do with free will. We were designed to fail.

Another thing to remember is that the instant you sin or do something wrong you're already forgiven by God. However people have a very hard time believing this and accepting it. The God I believe in is very forgiving and accepting. He doesn't punish us for anything we don't or wouldn't do.

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:4-6

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 11:26-31..

[grobblewobble]

Alright, some more spam about macro evolution. I would like to try and explain the point about niches a little better.

The essential point to realize about those niches is that each one has only a limited carrying capacity. That is, they can each only support a limited number of individuals. When a niche is not filled yet, the first individuals that are able to fill the niche are in an extremely advantageous situation, because food is abundant and they find themselves without competition. In contrast, individuals in a niche that is being overexploited will face a hard time, no matter how well adapted they are to that niche.

So that is the driving force behind speciation. It is also what is ultimately missing in evolutionary algorithms, where there is a fitness function, but no such thing as a limited carrying capacity.

The transition of fish to amphibian is again a nice example. Amphibians aren't terrible well adapted to life on land, but when they first evolved, they were the only animals on a land full of food, which made it much easier for them to survive.

I hope I'm helping you at all, Fasizi. You can find lots more on speciation on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Speciation. The wiki on evolution is really excellent.

[gut]

> The words of Jesus only make up a small fragment of the New
> Testament. Most of the New Testament is the words of Paul,

Now you're talking my language.

> We certainly would never treat each other as cruelly

You sure about that?

> or illogically as God treats us

I can only speak for myself, but I can't complain.

> We aren't as brutal to our children as He is to his creation

You prolly don't watch the evening news, eh?

I'll say it again, I can't complain. The world I live
in is often a brutal one, but it works. Has for a long
time. Baby deer getting eaten by wolves seems a bit
brutal, regardless of whether it is the way of evolution
or god. Seems cruel, but the system works. Like I asked
before, you got a better way? If you tried it your way,
it would prolly fail, mine too.

> We don't design laws as that are as unjust as the ones that He created

Now, that's just crazy talk! Our legal system can compete
with any craziness the universe has to offer. Where I live,
you get more prison time for tax evasion than murder. You
could eat people and be on the street a few weeks later if you
get your case thrown out on technicalities. In my home town we
can't legally buy or sell alcohol, but we can manufacture and
consume any quantities we like. We can even ship it via mail.
I could go on eternally

[grobblewobble]

> or illogically as God treats us

I can only speak for myself, but I can't complain.

Just wait until you're condemned to eternal suffering for the dirty words you spoke about Grey.

[Theym]

Another thing to remember is that the instant you sin or do something wrong you're already forgiven by God. However people have a very hard time believing this and accepting it. The God I believe in is very forgiving and accepting. He doesn't punish us for anything we don't or wouldn't do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it also a sin to imagine adultry, even though according to the Bible the 'Devil' puts the thoughts into our heads?

[Albahan]

Convicting someone for a crime that they might hypothetically have done is still immoral. And then, too, while I know that you personally didn't raise this point, I would contend that if all humans would have made the same choice as Adam and Eve, then clearly the issue had nothing to do with free will. We were designed to fail.

We were designed as innocent beings with free will. It basically comes down to whether you would rather be a being with no free will that does only good all the time or a being that has free will and will thus give into temptation when we are tempted.

>No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him

This is what we are to strive for in our lifetime, though few come close to this.

>If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

The words "received the knowledge of the truth" lead me to believe that this is after we have died and have been "enlightened" so to speak at which point there is nothing that would cause you to sin so this should be no problem.

Edit: @Theym well its more like imagining you're having sex with another woman in which case it is something you would or would want to do if you were given the opportunity. Besides you're already objectifying the person which is probably a sin in itself. Though I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this or that you're some sort of disgusting pig for doing so.

[minchazo]

@ JellySlayer RE this:

Two points: Eternal judgment isn't putting your life on a large scale to see if the good outweighs the bad; it's more of a "Where are you trying to go? Let Me get you there quicker." Hereditary sin would also have its opposite and be positive.

I'll try to explain better. The idea of 'Hereditary sin' is pretty easy for me, 'cause if my parents decided to do something (for example) like ban education, I'd have a tougher time in life. If they do the opposite and encouraged education, I'd be better off. In that manner I am affected by what my parents do and hereditary sin is only different in magnitude.

As for eternal judgment, I guess it's due to my opinion of what hell is. To my mind, the 'fire and brimstone' idea is a metaphor. Instead, it's similar our current world, but without the good bits we have (i.e. compassion, loyalty, empathy, etc). Imagine a world where you can't die, but everyone is trying to be 'dictator for life' of the entire world, or own the planet by any means necessary. Not my idea of a pleasant place, but there are those that would try to get there.