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Thread: Evolutionism vs creationism

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Knievel View Post
    Ok, think of the decisions a lot of people make as free will driven. Then the probabily distribution of their decisions can only be known to the extend to which they are determined by a law ( and reasoning ...). Hence, any free will brings in an not-knowable element to every statistics, that even remains, when an infinite number of decisions has been made.
    What exactly do you mean by "not-knowable element"? Suppose I gather lots of data from some kind of hypothetical experiment where agents with a free will make some decision. Now I can plot the result, obtaining a statistical distribution (by definition). If the results are more chaotic, that means the standard deviation from the mean result is greater. But a larger standard deviation still doesn't make for a real "not-knowable element".

    So in terms of experimental data, what does this "not-knowable element" look like?
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  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    What exactly do you mean by "not-knowable element"? Suppose I gather lots of data from some kind of hypothetical experiment where agents with a free will make some decision. Now I can plot the result, obtaining a statistical distribution (by definition). If the results are more chaotic, that means the standard deviation from the mean result is greater. But a larger standard deviation still doesn't make for a real "not-knowable element".

    So in terms of experimental data, what does this "not-knowable element" look like?
    I think I meant, that while in a non-free will driven statistics, the experimentally observed probability distribution should, in case of ideal conditions, with number of samples approaching infinity, become equal to the "true" probability distribution, in free-will containing case, this should not be the case, as there is no "true" probability distribution to the extend as free will prevents it to be fixed.

    I wonder however, if this wasn't just a stupid postulate of mine, that can not all be proven or not, as it is now evening and my mind is even less sharp than in the morning.

    I guess, for a completely nice random (e.g. gaussian) process that doesn't have anything changing in the background, one should be able to predict and observe the rate of convergence of the observed towards the final, stable (and the true) probability distribution. (e.g. 1/sqrt(n) for the standard deviation).
    In the free will situation, I think I ment to think, this convergence would have to be slower than that prediction, in fact no convergence should occur in the end.

    But well, maybe that#s balony. If the free will thing can be predicted, then that would all be nonsense, but i doubt that you would call it free will then.

  3. #343
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    Clearly this thread is too big to fail.

    And i just found this (originally found here):



    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
    When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
    - Stephen F Roberts"

    I think he's got a point.

    PS: I actually clicked on the thumbnail because I thought it might be a screenshot of a roguelike. And now I end up posting it here, of all places.
    Of course it's unfair - that's the whole point.

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  4. #344
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    Hey, I come back to boards after a year of absence, and first thing that catches my eye is some theological dispute.
    It really hurts me to see these. Really. Cause, youknow, I'm trying to be a good orthodoxal christian, and I went through a number of similar discussions in the late four or so years, and the worst thing in most of these discussions was opponent not even trying to understand your point of view. Having some sort of twisted image of christian belief in their mind, and saying to themselves: "meh! thing that stupid doesn't deserve any serious thinking", they keep repeating all the thousand-year-old "contradictions" of christianity, which in reality are not contradictions IN christianity, but are contradictions between their way of living and their understanding of christianity.
    And what hurts me most: I'm not eloquent enough to remove that wall of "meh". And until it removed, it absolutely does not matter what you say to them. And that's sad.
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  5. #345
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    My thought to this now is : i don't care wherever we evoluted or were made. As cioran said : whatever happens, life goes on.
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  6. #346
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    this thread is the 'TH sucks' of theology.
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  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorten View Post
    Hey, I come back to boards after a year of absence, and first thing that catches my eye is some theological dispute.
    It really hurts me to see these. Really. Cause, youknow, I'm trying to be a good orthodoxal christian, and I went through a number of similar discussions in the late four or so years, and the worst thing in most of these discussions was opponent not even trying to understand your point of view. Having some sort of twisted image of christian belief in their mind, and saying to themselves: "meh! thing that stupid doesn't deserve any serious thinking", they keep repeating all the thousand-year-old "contradictions" of christianity, which in reality are not contradictions IN christianity, but are contradictions between their way of living and their understanding of christianity.
    And what hurts me most: I'm not eloquent enough to remove that wall of "meh". And until it removed, it absolutely does not matter what you say to them. And that's sad.
    How does it hurt, Dorten? Does not your denomination of Christianity preach tolerance and understanding? Even if other people refuse to even attempt to open their minds to other perspectives , that doesn't have any bearing on the salvation of your soul. Especially people on the internet, they seem to be exceptionally ignorant.
    I said it before, and I'll say it again. If I knew scripture like you, I'd prolly be an athiest too.. -gut

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  8. #348
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    Christianity also tells you that you should care about others, if it's only dumb people on the internet. I'm similarly hurt when I see people being close-minded and unwilling or incapable of understanding. My continuing contribution to this forum thus strongly hints at a masochistic tendency.

    Naaah just kidding guys, I love you all in an entirely appropriate platonic manner.
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    I like the internet more than real life, in some ways. If you can search a bit (and I'm very picky about this; my co-workers have friends and I don't), it's much easier to select who you want to talk to on the internet. Also, I tend to find less of the annoying daily gossip kind of discussions and more things that lead toward debate. Better than putting the meek people with the opinionated ones. I will admit that people's opinions on the internet hardly ever change their minds, but there are such a number of opinions that I can find something interesting after a while. However, this suits me perfectly; I want to develop my own thoughts more than working on other people.

    Also, I dislike the phrase "closed-minded" (new form: "That doesn't deserve ... thinking."). Plenty of unsettling characters can be quite thoughtful, or just burdened by work. Also, I think that there exist backwards ideas which are more assertive than proper ones, and that resisting something until it makes perfect sense, including all of the logical conclusions of that thing, until you reach the point where you think of it as your own idea, never did wrong by me. Plus, the record for agreeing with people who use that phrase is abysmally low. I think this is because it's so commonly used without enough supporting evidence.

    Just observations. Not picking on you. Maybe.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by fazisi View Post
    How does it hurt, Dorten? Does not your denomination of Christianity preach tolerance and understanding? Even if other people refuse to even attempt to open their minds to other perspectives , that doesn't have any bearing on the salvation of your soul. Especially people on the internet, they seem to be exceptionally ignorant.
    It hurts, because I want to help them understand what's right in this world (in my belief), but I can not do that. Simple as that. Also: understanding - yes. tolerance - no. Tolerance is medical therm, meaning incapability of body to stand up against poison/disease. And when it comes to theological disputes, tolerance is accepting the others' wrong view of the problem. And if you know (OK, OK, believe), that their point of view WILL make them suffer later, you cannot just stand still without trying to convince them. And if you can't it hurts. Just because you can't help people.

    On topic (forgot about the topic )
    Genesis 1:11-12
    And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    Genesis 1:20-21
    And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    You see:
    earth brought forth grass
    every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth

    I can't see how does that contradict with abiogenesis and evolutionary theories.

    And more imortant: I can't see how's can that be really important to anybody except strict biology specialists.
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