Revising the weapon skills

[Dougy]

Both, Qui and Tannis, have great ideas - I like them.
Only thing is, that I'm not sure which scaling is the best - linear or logarithmic. Probably the best one is something between these two...

Well I initially proposed linear before level 15 and logarithmic after, but a cubic before level 15 seems to fit the ADOM values better.

The other option is the make the points needed to increase in level exponential, although I'm not sure how TB is storing these values and this might be impossible due to the "wrap around" bug.

Personally I prefer the logarithmic scale at the end. When you're a beginner you can pick things up quickly and you learn many new things, but when you're experienced it takes a lot of work for little gain.

[Dougy]

As for critical hits:

The probability of a critical hit should be given by p(level)=b-(b-a)*e^(-k level^2) where
a and b are determined by the weapon and a few PC traits
a is the probability of a critical hit of a completely unskilled PC
b is the probability of a critical hit of a PC with weapon skill infinity, that is the theoretical maximum
k is a constant that varies the slope of the graph, that is how "quickly" it goes from bad to good. I recommend keeping this at 1/15^2 to compare with ADOM.

I plotted a graph of this function with a=0.05, that is without training the PC scores a critical hit 5% of the time, and b=0.5, that is a fully trained PC would score a critical hit 50% of the time. Constant k=1/15^2. I've attached a copy of the graph.

[Tannis]

As for critical hits:

The probability of a critical hit should be given by p(level)=b-(b-a)*e^(-k level^2) where
a and b are determined by the weapon and a few PC traits
a is the probability of a critical hit of a completely unskilled PC
b is the probability of a critical hit of a PC with weapon skill infinity, that is the theoretical maximum
k is a constant that varies the slope of the graph, that is how "quickly" it goes from bad to good. I recommend keeping this at 1/15^2 to compare with ADOM.

I plotted a graph of this function with a=0.05, that is without training the PC scores a critical hit 5% of the time, and b=0.5, that is a fully trained PC would score a critical hit 50% of the time. Constant k=1/15^2. I've attached a copy of the graph.

Doesn't every other hit being a critical one strike you as rather high? I feel like 25-33% should be the max for a well trained character, otherwise it might become too unbalanced. Great graph, though.

[Dougy]

Doesn't every other hit being a critical one strike you as rather high? I feel like 25-33% should be the max for a well trained character, otherwise it might become too unbalanced. Great graph, though.

Well, the constants a and b can be changed to suit without trouble.

Remember that b is a theoretical maximum, nobody can ever achieve it. This isn't a "well trained" character but one that knows absolutely everything there is to know about fighting with that weapon.

At level 15 there's 33% probability, at level 20 there's 42% probability. I'm expecting that JADE will be similar to ADOM in the sense that you would have to play for a _long_ time before achieving level 15 in weapon skills and levels beyond that would only come from scumming.

[Dorten]

When speaking about logarithmic increase of bonuses with every level of mastery, and exponential increase of their costs, don't you act a bit harsh? With exponential increase in cost, and linear increase of bonuses with levels we already will have logarithmic increase of bonuses counted against weapon marks used. That's because if you have to spent month of real time playing to get 20 level, then you'll have to play for, say, another half of a month to get to 21'th level...
The idea with different classes of enemies is more realistic, however, and, in my opinion, would fit better in game (and it'll enable the possibility not to use exponent as cost function)

[moppit]

Do you have prerequisites set up for skills yet (and/or will you be doing prereq skills - akin to talents in adom)

Assuming you had or wanted to use a prerequisite skill system, you could do something along the lines of

if Weapon skill:blunts(1h) or Weapon skill:blunts(2h) >= 10 Then allow stunning at (1% + 2d4%)/10 or something

and advance it as a skill or something.. Could even make up fun names for it like Thundering Hammer Strike or Whirling Dervish Technique etc... Pardon the generic unadomesque names..

Then you could perhaps just add a few lines to the weaponawareness class that would case if any techniques were applicable and variable in the modifier% chance for desired/trained effect.

[Dougy]

When speaking about logarithmic increase of bonuses with every level of mastery, and exponential increase of their costs, don't you act a bit harsh? With exponential increase in cost, and linear increase of bonuses with levels we already will have logarithmic increase of bonuses counted against weapon marks used. That's because if you have to spent month of real time playing to get 20 level, then you'll have to play for, say, another half of a month to get to 21'th level...
The idea with different classes of enemies is more realistic, however, and, in my opinion, would fit better in game (and it'll enable the possibility not to use exponent as cost function)

In ADOM, I believe the required marks are multiplied by the golden ratio each time, that is 1.618.... So yes, that is exponential. See this for info about the golden ratio. These values are listed in the manual:

Level  1 2  3  4  5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15
Melee 15 25 40 65 105 170 275 445 720 1165 1885 3050 4935 7985 12920
Missl  7 12 20 32  52  85 137 222 360  582  942 1525 2467 3992  6460

Harsh? In ADOM, you can reach level 15 and that is it. No matter how much you train your char, there will be no increase in your weapon skills. Isn't that a bit harsh? The player knows (or should know) that this is the case in ADOM and similarly in JADE the player will know that there are decreasing returns if he or she continues to scum.

Already in ADOM different enemies give you a different number of weapon skill points per attack.

[Dorten]

the player will know that there are decreasing returns if he or she continues to scum.

They will be decreasing even if the bonus increase with levels will be linerar... hell, even polynomial!
That's what I meant to say. So, I'd say - the easiest would be to remove the cap, keep marks increase exponential as it was in ADOM, and bonus increase linear... DON'T make it logarythmic.

That's just me, though

[Dougy]

They will be decreasing even if the bonus increase with levels will be linerar... hell, even polynomial!
That's what I meant to say. So, I'd say - the easiest would be to remove the cap, keep marks increase exponential as it was in ADOM, and bonus increase linear... DON'T make it logarythmic.

That's just me, though

I do see your point, you don't want this "double-whammie" effect. First it's difficult to get to the next level and even when you do, you don't get much and less and less as time goes on.

The reality of the situation is, that nobody is going to be getting over level 30 or so without some form of cheating or some extreme level of scumming. According to the ADOM system, to get to level 30, you'll need a total of 44,791,032 weapon skill points.

For low levels (the ones feasible to reach), the logarithmic and linear systems are very similar. I'll attach a picture of the two graphs along with the points I listed earlier for to-hit bonuses, all with +12 to hit at level 15.

In the ADOM Hall of Fame there are flags with chars using the wish spell to get every single weapon skill maxed, i.e. level 15. Without the level cap in JADE the char can continue to wish and wish without limit. We should be careful not to allow this form of scumming to be extremely advantageous.

[Orbic]

I don't actually like the separation of two-handed types for each weapon, I must say. What's so different about how to use an axe one-handed or two-handed? It's an extremely similar style of combat - far more similar than say one-handed and dual-wielding two axes. It'd rather see a "two-handed weapon" skill in ADOM, like there is for dual-wielding. Thus anyone trained in swords would have a little trouble handling a big two-hander unless they're trained in the skill. One nice result of this would be that spellcasters would have a hideous time trying to use big weapons since they wouldn't start with that skill (whilst warrior types and trolls would).

From experience, there is nothing in common between 1H and 2H weapon fighting.
1H weapon is used in combination with another weapon or a shield for defense. If a 1H light weapon is used by itslef then you rely on dodgeing for defense, or on the weapon itself (late middle ages swords, rapiers - this shows the evolution of weaponry and fighting techniques where the armor is no longer on the body but on the weapon - hilt in this case).
Dual wielding (usually sword + dagger) is on the fencing evolution path after the shield / armour desuetude and good fun, eventually to be replaced with 1H piercing only modern sword - much faster.

2H weapon is used in combination with a heavy armour, the aim being destroying the opponent's armour to hinder movement or cause wounds. So it is in fact much more different from 1H than dual wielding is.