Thee Weakest Link '09: League of Fire

[IGB]

Grey is right here. I'd suggest let CheatMan have his word. If he agrees to continue, then let him, if not, then Epythic should redo his turn.

[Epythic]

In IRC we agreed on this:

1. Soirana has the final word.
2. I'll probably have to replay my turn. And I am free to go to I19, as long as I stop on turn 22000. I get another 72 hours to play this turn.

[CheatMan]

In IRC we agreed on this:

1. Soirana has the final word.
2. I'll probably have to replay my turn. And I am free to go to I19, as long as I stop on turn 22000. I get another 72 hours to play this turn.

Yup. i'm vouching this. Soirana, your call.

[Molach]

How hard is it to stop at exactly turn count? w5, w5, w5, getting close....guess I can press the 5 key 15 times...okay 22000. Stop. Being sleep'd or para'd is of course perfectly legitimate.

Joke aside, dropping down three levels is not really chaotic, just "not in the best interest of the characters well-being". Stupid, from the viewpoint of "let's get the sceptre and show those other leagues". But chaotic? Leaving the char on downstairs of a cleared level is a great favor to next player. Next player can fulfil his round by hanging out in the level for any number of turns, then drop down if something nasty appears and wait his turn out downstairs. Theoretically.

Besides, Karma will make sure that the newly-generated level is impassable somehow. Threat room of something nasty in the way. So Emph will be cast into the abyss later on.

If it is not impassable, no harm done.

If we only had had food preservation at 60 by now, we would have been rolling in corpses (nice mental image...)

This whole chaos thing is a bit beyond me, really. This deep we won't need chaos to get the last few member killed. And this girl has been screwed so hard she can hardly walk straight. JUST SAY NO TO CHAOS!
Ehm.

[Grey]

I'd suggest let CheatMan have his word. If he agrees to continue, then let him, if not, then Epythic should redo his turn.

Obviously members of this league would be biased towards putting Epythic at risk of dying again

We've had a bit of a discussion on IRC about this, and I get the feeling Epythic still doesn't even fully realise what's wrong about what he's done. I'd like to say he should repeat his turn and stay within the turn limit this time, but I feel it's best to wait for Soirana to decide what should happen, if anything.

[Grey]

And in case anyone wants to see the IRC conversation (involving myself, Epythic, CheatMan, Silfir and a few others) you can find it here:

http://www.geocities.com/darrenjohngrey/irc_convo.txt

At first it's interspersed with some comments on nathrakh's game, but it soon leaps full stride into the boring hour long discussion of how to react to this... After what you see there it then branched off into discussion of RPGs, old roguelikes and Commander Keen.

[Silfir]

The reason why he doesn't fully realize what's wrong about it is that there really isn't much wrong about it. I get his point perfectly, and it feels a little contradictory that because he overplayed accidentally what would be a legal descent to ID:19 made it so bad.

If Epythic hadn't overplayed, CheatMan wouldn't have gotten a clear ID:18 either, because Epythic was planning on descending anyway. It could be argued that CheatMan had a right to receive a clear ID:18, but since Epythic cleared that one himself, I don't think such right can be construed. Wasn't one of the principles that you could do what you want with whatever you found on your turn? Shouldn't that be even more true if you fought for what you got, i. e. like Epythic fought to clear the level? Why should he have to let CheatMan benefit from that?

The fact is: If Epythic hadn't overplayed, CheatMan would've found himself in the same situation. Epythic just would've descended earlier. And he would've been allowed to do so.

If you want to insist that CheatMan received the right to choose precisely on Epythic's turn 2000 and Epythic took that way by negligence and THAT'S what's unfair and replay-worthy, well... That just feels to formalistic to me. Too insistent on the letter of the rules, and not properly taking into account the hardships Epythic had to go through to even get the cleared level.

So no, I don't think we should hold Epythic in contempt - I don't really get why he did so much wrong either. I also feel it would be very, very unfair to him if he had to replay, because based on what he did and what would've happened if he hadn't overplayed CheatMan wasn't hurt at all.

[Grey]

Wasn't one of the principles that you could do what you want with whatever you found on your turn?

That should be done within one's own turns too :P

If you want to insist that CheatMan received the right to choose precisely on Epythic's turn 2000 and Epythic took that way by negligence and THAT'S what's unfair and replay-worthy, well... That just feels to formalistic to me. Too insistent on the letter of the rules, and not properly taking into account the hardships Epythic had to go through to even get the cleared level.

Hardships? Seems like he had a reasonably smooth turn. He cleared the level just in the interests of his own play. I don't like the idea that he can descend when he wants just because he was the one that cleared the level, even if it means descending on the last turn to make it harder on the next guy. If he did have any such "rights" then he forfeited them by making the mistake of going over his turns. To disregard that and continue performing actions after he knew he'd exceeded the turncount shows extreme disregard for the rules.

Possibly a mistake, but to what extent do we allow players to make mistakes that are wholly against the rules? Shall we allow an accidental use of the up stairs when escaping a monster? Accidentally forgetting to mention the lightning vortex right round the corner, or the ratling that picked up the books that were temporarily dropped to reduce weight? I don't think it's fair to wipe off any mistake just because the player didn't mean harm, especially if that mistake goes flagrantly against one of the core rules of the game (the 2k turns rule in this case).

So no, I don't think we should hold Epythic in contempt - I don't really get why he did so much wrong either. I also feel it would be very, very unfair to him if he had to replay, because based on what he did and what would've happened if he hadn't overplayed CheatMan wasn't hurt at all.

So when the chaos gates open shall we let people eat kobolds corpse on turn 2034 when they accidentally went over their turns and didn't get to do the chaotic tactics they were intending to do anyway? Whilst I don't entirely interpret Epythic's actions as chaotic I do still find it hard to believe that he was utterly ignorant of the fact that descending at the last minute was to benefit him and disadvantage the next player. The statement of "I did it because I saw other people doing it" is feeble at best - certainly isn't true of the majority of players in this league or any other.

[purge]

"i. e. like Epythic fought to clear the level? Why should he have to let CheatMan benefit from that?"

As far as i know, your not supposed to purposely take actions to make the game more difficult for the next player until the gate is opened? The question is, was that his intention or a terrible mistake? Because he was on the down stairs waiting out his turn, and then descended even after he knew his turn was over, it seems to me that his intention from the start was to descend at the very end of his turn to make the game more difficult for Cheatman.

[Soirana]

will sort in ten minutes

So far i see no DQ since i see no prime damage to char. The thing i was suspicious was not descending per se. It was potential of leaving something behind. Nothing major i could managed detect.

Well, this league is full of questionable play starting from Pavel, going through Moloch using up last holy water for non obvious reason [and killing chances bless more] and ending on this.
I was getting worried when you guys started leaving char on Berserk as that was more or less reserved for Chaos rounds last year.

As descendings in time goes this was discussed. You need to do something really big to get DQ [approaching ten levels]. 3-4 levels while you reasonably explore is okay. You do not need kill yourself on trapped door or hang out in explored level.

As last descending goes... I'd rather leave char on stairs to avoid chance of abyss. Another thing is pushing all the team [still 5 guys left] deeper in ID...

Well, strangely i am gonna believe in good will since that was so easy to cover in report simply changing sequence into i descended when w5...


Overall decision since actions after you roiund are unlegal I have undone that.

Cheatman starts on ID18 again. Level is mapped, checked for things like tension rooms, any items on floor removed, turn counter set on 20020. Save in next post.

Edit: removed your nograin reason both for botting [still could have replaced] and for roleplay [rolewrite reasons] reasons.
Save attached innext post. Please play from this save to turn 22000.


Well, i checked char via bot before and after round.