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Thread: What would you do?

  1. #1
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    Default What would you do?

    I'm faced with the dilemma of what to do with my most promising character to date...

    Gregor is a level 16 trollish monk. In his stash in the Ogre Cave he has a wand of wishing with 0 charges (the previous two charges having been used to generate pairs of seven league boots, and an amulet of life saving). He has only recieved three corruptions, but they happen to be the most beneficial corruptions in the game (regeneration, thin and nimble, and weight loss). Weight loss was the last corruption I recieved, and may be worth undoing, because at the same time I recieved it I had my stats badly drained by a greater deamon in the dwarven halls, and am finding myself particularly weak and fragile. I just cleared out a tension room of Chaos Warlords in the dwarven halls, as well as two molochs. I have a mixed tension room in level two of the dwarven halls beneath me, but I think I know better than to try for them yet...
    My blessed ring of ice (which was my ticket to ride in the tower of eternal flames has just been destroyed through an unfortunate attempt to convert a chaotic alter. Despite my massive pile of wands in my stash, I've yet to find a single wand of cold, I also chose the keethrax quest, rather than the yriggs quest, so no hatchet for bridge building, all of this means I have not been able to get at the ring of the high kings. Also most unfortunately, I don't appear to have any beeswax (i thought I had one lump, but it appears to have disappeared out of my stash).

    In short, I'm faced with a major dilemma. Do I descend to the banshee level and try to get past her without beeswax, potion of deafness or a wedding ring? Do I surf the infinite dungeon until I find a hive? Do I ignore the banshee level for now and go clear darkforge and the ToEF? Quickling Tree?

    This character has SOOO much promise (two pairs of seven league boots remaining, three desirable corruptions, saved the K-man, book of teleportation [no tele control yet]), but a lot of liabilities... No method of deafness, which makes the banshee terrifying, no method of bridge building, which makes the eternal guardian and the shortcut to the surface a major complication...

    So what would you do? I could use a wish for rings of ice for the ToEF, or for wands of cold, or lumps of beeswax... but all those really tear my ass to use a wish on...

    What would you do?
    What would you do?

    Edit: Almost forgot, one of the molochs I just killed dropped a moloch armor... what would you do about that?
    Last edited by Phoobnahr; 02-06-2012 at 05:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Best use for a moloch armor is melting it down into a truckload of eternium ingots, if you like Smithing that is. Honestly, I'd probably just let it lie there. Too heavy to comfortably sell for loot. That is unless there are other molochs around. Do NOT let other molochs near this armor. Come to think of it, does it have a similar effect on other creatures? What are you even doing in the Dwarven Halls? High King caverns not dangerous enough for you?

    Did you try to check the CoC levels you played through for extra lumps of beeswax? They don't rot, after all. Usually I take one stack with me and leave the rest. Also, if there's still a couple levels left until the banshee level, there's an excellent chance a bee hive is in one of those. Also: If I remember right (you should wait for some real experts to chime up), the banshee wail is only audible if there are less than three squares between you and the banshee, meaning it is possible to defeat her from a distance using missiles (undead slaying is perfect). Controlled teleportation would be perfect, though monk/seven leagues movement should be more than enough. Magic mapping to make sure you're not too close when you open the banshee's room would also be helpful.

    The importance of a ring of ice in the Tower is perhaps commonly overestimated. Simply put, it doesn't really matter how much stuff gets burnt up on the way, since you can restock in the Casino once you've succeeded anyway. You can go in with a full inventory of all your things and get out naked plus a fire orb and it's a resounding success. With that in mind, you still need the stuff ("stuff" being the collective term for: potion of confusion, potion of blindness, wand of paralyzation, potion of poison, wand of poison, arrowquarrels of dragon slaying plus weapon, cursed potion of invisibility) to keep until the top, or better put, you need some of the stuff to keep. So it's best to first go in with minimal equipment, map out the way to the top, and rush through as fast as possible with your stuff. I think there's a very good chance, you being a trollish monk (what's your HP score?), that you could do the Tower with just your bare fists and the water orb. (Especially with your artifacts and higher metal armor.)

    Getting the Ring of the High Kings is helpful, but not obligatory. If you have controlled teleportation, there's a time window during which you can slip past the eternal guardian. The shortcut isn't really important because, again, Casino. If you really want that shortcut, you can just get a wand of cold from there and get the ring later.



    There's still the issue of what to do with your wish. Deal with a hostile eternal guardian or possible banshee instakill? Hostile eternal guardians sound like the less dangerous prospect, so I'd wish for lumps of beeswax over the wands of cold - but then I'd probably try to not use the wish on any of the three options you list, for much of the same reasons as yourself: Feels like a terrible waste.
    Last edited by Silfir; 02-06-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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  3. #3
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    First thing you should do is get the wand out of your stash. It's made of eternium so it can't be damaged, and since it's now on zero charges there's no risk of the mana battery corruption messing it up. Keep it on you in case you find an extreme need for it.

    There's no need for a ring of ice if you have fireproof blankets and are choosy about what equipment to wear. There's no need for a wand of cold if you can teleport past the eternal guardian (which admittedly you can't do right now). You can also get ogre magi or ice dragons to freeze the piranhas for you if you lure them down the stairs from the caverns. Banshee is a little trickier, but as Silfir says you can snipe her from afar if you're careful. An amulet of undead protection also reduces damage from her to almost manageable levels.

    One option is to wish yourself an amulet of life saving, in case of death through idiocy/overconfidence. Just make sure you bless it and take it off in risky areas (fire temple, air temple). Other options include filling in equipment slots that are lacking (wanna post a dump so we can make suggestions?) or buying a certain skill (you have most of the relevant ones as a monk anyway).
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  4. #4
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    A few quick notes...

    -I would never wish for 7lbs as a monk. Your natural movement bonus is almost as good.

    -You will never find a hive in the infinite dungeon. How far down have you gone in CoC? There is often a hive on the level immediately before the Banshee. If you don't have it already, you should get the water orb.

    -It would help to post a .vlg of your equipment, as this will give a better sense of what is worth wishing for. If you don't have red dragon armor, this might be an option, unless you have sufficient fire resistance from elsewhere (although if you haven't done Darkforge yet, you should check there first). Weapons aren't normally worth wishing for, but other things like eternium tower shields might be. A ring of weakness or an ancient karmic wyrm are also good choices if you know how to take advantage of such things. Otherwise, don't, as they can easily kill you.

    -If you're feeling weak and fragile as a result of corruption/stat drains, you might want to take some time to use your herbs and fix your stats. Regeneration is going to ruin your Dx score (I loathe this corruption, actually, and normally remove it if I can), and your To is down from weight loss, so topping up with some morgia and moss is probably a good idea.

    -You don't need a wand of cold to get the ring of High Kings. In your situation, I would normally just go to the dungeon and run around until you find an ogre magus (preferably) or ice vortex. The ice bolts from the Ogre Magus will freeze the lake over in no time. (For the vortex, you need to put darkness at the bottom of the stairs before taking the vortex down). Baby white dragons, unfortunately, do not work.

    -It's risky as hell, but with a very fast character like yours, you can outrun the Banshee. Her wail only works in a 3 square radius, so if you can stay outside of this, you can kill her with missiles or ignore her and teleport to the stairs. Don't open the doors to enter her room; use a wand of digging instead so you can get some more distance on her, and use torches, an amulet of the eye, or farsight to increase your sight. You might have to try a couple different sides of the room to get a breach, since the room is often full of useless secret doors. Regardless, there is no reason to go deeper until you have the Fire Orb and have made a decision about High Kings.

    -If you have fireproof blankets, rings of ice are totally unnecessary unless you have an awful lot of very fragile gear (which you shouldn't, by this point). Again, I'd suggest posting your equipment. If you have some disabling potions (confusion, wonder, blindness, cursed invisibility), you can probably take on the Wyrm. Level 16 for a troll is over level 20 for a regular character, IIRC, so you're at about the right level of experience to be thinking about it. A couple scrolls of familiar summoning, if you have those, are also super-useful as Wyrm-killers as well.

    -While you're in Darkforge, you might want to consider doing the pool lottery to see if you can get teleport control. Depends what you already have, I guess.

    -Are you crowned yet? Unless you are going for an ultra, you should get crowned ASAP. Monks have great crowning gifts, and the reduced food consumption will help with your trollishness.

    -If your learning is really good, you might want to wish for spellbooks of Acid Ball or Ice Ball. Ice ball is good for fighting the ToEF crowd, and, conveniently, will also let you get the Ring of High Kings. Acid ball is the best damage spell in the game, and works on almost everything. Being a troll, though, I'd say you want at 30 learning at minimum (use crown of science, maybe), preferably closer to 40, to really make this wish count. You might need to wish for the Divine equivalents. I can't remember if monks take arcane or divine. [edit]Literacy and concentration should both be 100 as well, obviously.
    Last edited by JellySlayer; 02-06-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoobnahr View Post
    My blessed ring of ice (which was my ticket to ride in the tower of eternal flames has just been destroyed through an unfortunate attempt to convert a chaotic alter.
    The only things you should have in your inventory when converting an altar are a few thousand gp and a si in the missile slot. The truly paranoid might want to lock all doors and maybe make themselves invisible, although ideally you'll only be standing on a chaotic altar for 1 turn. Then you can laugh on the face of divine equipment cursing and destruction - the si is an indestructible artifact, cursed items can be removed from the missile slot, and B/U/C status of gold, while technically recorded, is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    You can also get ogre magi or ice dragons to freeze the piranhas for you if you lure them down the stairs from the caverns.
    I thought ice breath from dragons didn't freeze water due to a bug? (Never tested this myself)

    On a sidenote, you're pretty fortunate to have found a WoWi. I've only found one during my entire ADOM "career". It had two charges.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for all the quick replies...

    as regards earlier advice, been thinking of using remaining wish for an amulet of life-saving for myself... good to know I can safely carry the wand with me for on-demand wishing.
    I don't have any experience with wishing for the extremely dangerous but exploitable wishes (ancient karmic wyrm, etc), so I think I'll stay away from those.

    I haven't gotten into smithing yet, but I do have an eternium warhammer in my stash, so lugging the moloch armor up there for ingots is a good idea.
    I just made a very brief foray into the Dwarven halls, I wasn't trying to pass through, but when I first got that far down in the CoC, I found the tension room of Chaos Warlords right next to the stairs. I killed a few and kept the rest as an experience stash... I checked the other side of the Dwarven halls on my way back up from the water temple and found the mixed tension room. Been awhile since I've seen a Dwarven Halls quite this dangerous...
    I've got lots of undead slaying ammo and good missile weapon skills, so if I don't have any options for deafness, I will give the banshee a go without it...

    I've been playing this game a long time and have yet to get a win, so such a promising character is making me extremely nervous... been having a hard time training my stats with herbs... any tips, things that I should know that aren't explicitly stated in the guidebook?

    Very frustrating to not have teleport control yet... I had an eternium spear of hunting, and killed probably 30 blink dogs in the big room with it, and still no teleport control... staying neutral for now because I want scrolls of chaos resistance from the dwarven mystic, then I'll probably go chaotic... I have LOTS of chaos curing stuff (7 scrolls and 2 potions so far, and haven't seen the dwarven mystic or gotten the scroll in HMV yet), I also have a giant boar skull and lots of junk artifacts in my stash, so I'm considering feeding the ratling and talking to Gaab'bay (not that I plan on getting an ultra ending, I hear its a bad idea for trolls and highly implausible as a first victory, it'd just be nice to even see the start of that quest line for once)

    Guess I'll make a go for the banshee and hope for a hive before her level, then go to darkforge and drink from the pools before I assault the ToEF (though extensive pool drinking after the early game can be a recipe for heartbreak).

    vlg file is attached (first time using the forums, hope I did it right...)
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #7
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    Okay, looking through your .vlg now...

    Code:
    Gregor    St:17  Le: 7  Wi:31  Dx:22  To:23  Ch: 5  Ap: 1  Ma: 9  Pe:13  N-
    DV/PV: 43/18   H: 167(199)   P: 78(78)   Exp: 16/864662   M: 63596
    Well, your stats aren't that great, but there's not much you can do to boost them at this point. If you eat some morgia root (4x at a time, then wait), you can bump your To up to 25 or 26, and if you use 3x moss at a time, you can bump Dx to 25 or 26. Your St is pretty pitiful for a troll, but there's not much you can do to raise it easily at the moment, I'm afraid. Keep an eye out for ogre corpses and things. If you've got spare cash, it might be worth giving a tonne to Garth to train St and Le. Your 137 speed is pretty sweet, but it does mean that you'll level even slower, though that won't matter that much in the long run I don't think. You're actually 10 speed slower by being strained right now, too. A couple extra points of To will probably give you 20-30 more HP.

    Code:
    Head          : uncursed metal cap [+0, +1]                           [50s]
    Neck          : uncursed black torc [+4, +2] (+10 spd)                 [3s]
    Body          : uncursed ancient mummy wrapping [+1, +5] {Ap-8}       [60s]
    Girdle        : blessed copper-hewn girdle                             [7s]
    Cloak         : cursed leather cloak (-1, +0) [+1, +2]                [40s]
    Right Hand    : uncursed adamantium spear of mayhem (+1, 3d8+12)      [36s]
    Left Hand     : uncursed medium eternium shield (+2) [+9, +3]         [46s]
    Right Ring    : blessed ring of fire resistance                        [1s]
    Left Ring     : uncursed nograin ring                                  [1s]
    Bracers       : uncursed bracers of defense [+2, +0]                  [10s]
    Gauntlets     : uncursed elemental gauntlets (-1, +0) [+0, +3]        [10s]
    Boots         : blessed seven league boots [+1, +0]                   [30s]
    Missile weapon: blessed long bow (+2, +2)                             [30s]
    Missiles      : heap of 4 rocks                                       [20s]
    Tool          : uncursed Chaos Orb of Elemental Water {Wi+10}        [100s]
    
    Necklaces (''')
       uncursed ankh                                                       [3s]
       uncursed blue amulet                                                [3s]
    
    Wands ('\')
       uncursed wand of paralyzation (5 charges)
    I would consider switching to the ankh over the torc, unless you really love speed. The ankh gives a bunch of nice effects (major luck bonuses); the torc curses you. The blue amulet is probably water breathing; your nograin ring is actually probably a wedding ring.

    The wand can be used against the Wyrm and other nasties like the Cat Lord. Useful as hell. Be sure to bless it before you start using it. If you come across some unholy water, cursing your pots of invisibility isn't a bad idea. As a thrown weapon, they can blind enemies, including the aforementioned Wyrm.

    Do you know if you have natural fire resistance? Including the torc, you have 3x, but you'll be much better off with the ankh for the Tower. It will help protect your gear from fire damage, and, more importantly, will make a huge difference against the Wyrm's confusion attacks. With gauntlets, fire ring, and natural, you're set.

    I would strongly advise getting yourself crowned ASAP*. Instead of giving your junk artifacts to the ratling, sell them to Waldenbrook and sacrifice the gold. If you can get about 70k, you should be able to get crowned. 5 out of the 6 monk crowning gifts for you will be excellent, plus you get an elemental immunity and a blessing. The Darkforge armories should provide extra weapons to sell if you're short on gold. Don't sacrifice your gold until you have at least 70k, since piety slowly decreases over time, whereas gold does not.

    For wishes, I think the best choice for you is a girdle of giant strength. It gives +12 (approx) Strength, which will help you a tonne. Unfortunately, you can't use the girdle in the tower, since it is vulnerable to destruction.

    I think your next stop is definitely Darkforge. There's a lot of good reasons for you to visit if you haven't, assuming you can kill the golems. In your situation, I would considering doing Kherab's first quest, where you kill Jharod** for the Shield of Raw steel. It is a highly corrupting artifact, so you'll want to use it sparingly, but it is also the Tower killer. It will give fire immunity, a huge boost to your PV, DV, and Toughness. Just use it for the Tower and ditch it once you're done. If you're quick, you should not get more than 1 corruption. You will lose access to the unicorn quest, but you hopefully have enough corruption removal that it won't matter.

    [edit]I'd be very carefully doing pool drinking at this point in the game, now that I think about it. The big risk to you is unnatural aging. 1-2 hits of aging will screw up your stats royally. 2-3 hits of aging will kill you.

    [*]If you want to do any chaotic acts such as killing Jharod, you may want to delay crowning until this is done. Unless you want to get crowned chaotic, I suppose, which is generally a really bad idea.

    [**]Caution: this may make everybody in Terinyo angry at you. Most dangerous are the shopkeeper, and Khelevaster, who might be in town. I believe you can aggro Jharod "peacefully" using a wand, as long as you don't hit any other townsfolk.
    Last edited by JellySlayer; 02-06-2012 at 10:17 PM.
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  8. #8
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    About vlgs: That was okay, but the best way to post them on the forum is to open with Notepad and past the content in between CODE tags. Look at JellySlayer's post in "Reply with Quote" to check the syntax. Sometimes you have to crop to fit the vlg's content in one post though.

    Nograin rings are wedding rings, BUT I think you need to be male (or female? Never used one!) for them to work on the banshee. But it won't hurt to wear it while you're killing it from afar. Even if you're the correct gender, the banshee has to be able to see you for one to work, so make sure to not run ahead around corners (but then, the banshee doesn't really hit hard; you can stay in melee range. Just don't blind it! Straight up damage kill it!). But like JellySlayer said, there's usually a beehive in one of the levels just before the banshee.

    I don't think wishing for an item that you're planning to not use in the tower is a smart idea, considering the Tower is the most troublesome place in the game to begin with. I'd want a good amount more HP before tackling the Tower, be sure to make use of morgia as best as you can. The optimal way is to get like two hundred morgia, get up to 24 To by eating four at a time, then stuff yourself full. Remember to take off the orb before doing this so you get great Willpower too. That should put you at around 250 HP at least, which is enough for the Tower. It should also add to your PV some. 20 isn't stellar, but probably good enough. Make sure to bless the spear for extra damage against fire demons and grues. Make sure to dig into the middle of the Temple and not to rush in. Catch the Wyrm's attention somehow and...

    Actually, I kinda hate to do this, but there's a recording of someone doing the Tower of Eternal Flames in pretty much exactly the way I'd do it, which is probably more helpful than a blow-by-blow text description. (Also saves me time). At around 22:00, I dig into the central room and kill the wyrm. I use a potion of confusion and I use barbarian tremendous blows, but you've got paralyzation instead, which gives you more than enough time to just go berserk with your spear and achieve roughly the same result.



    I don't think you have to resort to using the shield of raw steel. Red dragon scale mail fulfills the same purpose of making you immune to fire and also gives you considerable improvement in PV. Make sure to wish in plural ("red dragon scale mails").

    Don't feel obligated to bother with Smithing at all. If it makes you feel better about going difficult places, go for it, until you get terminally bored. Make sure to make backups since there's a crash bug associated with ingots (specifically, stacking) that might give you trouble. I've never really done Smithing so I don't know exactly how to avoid it.
    Last edited by Silfir; 02-06-2012 at 11:30 PM.
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  9. #9
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    thanks again for the replies... my strength and toughness are so low right now because I just got badly drained by a greater deamon. I was finishing off my second moloch near the stairs of the dwarven halls and got pinned between the moloch and the greater deamon in a hallway, had to berserk melee the greater deamon before the moloch caught up to me... stupid I know, but what can you do.
    that was actually the final setback that led to me coming here to ask for advice...
    add to that the fact that I got the huge weight loss corruption during my battle with the molochs, and you can see that my character was left with little more than half the strength and toughness he had at the beginning of the fight. If desirable, I could get rid of that and the regeneration corruption, which would offset the dexterity gain from weight loss... I was pretty excited to have both the nimble and weight loss corruptions for late-game purposes (rift and quickling tree), but I suppose it doesn't do me any good to go walking around with a fairly nasty corruption when that's so far off anyway...
    as regards my fire resistance, I definitely have intrinsic fire resistance.
    As regards Kherab and the shield of raw steel, I took the keethrax quest at the beginning of the game, not the yriggs quest, so kherab's first quest will be to kill Guth'Alak, not Jharod... but since you mention unicorn quest and terinyo, that's probably what you meant... I probably won't go for the shield, since I already have a very good shield anyway... but I'll definitely consider it if the tower is looking like a problem at the start... can I even handle Guth'Alak right now? never fought him...
    I had a feeling my nograin ring was a wedding ring, which if I remember correctly has to be wielded in the right hand (weapon slot?) by a male character to protect against the banshee.
    I had been toying with the idea of using my remaining wish on either red dragon scale mail(s) or girdle(s) of giant strength, but may still elect to get another amulet of life saving...

    Speaking of amulets... I used the black torc the last time I beat the tower, Was under the impression it was an ideal necklace since my cursed status causes my fireproof blankets to never burn away... only been in there once before, how many do I need to last me through the whole tower if I don't wear the torc?

    thanks again for all the advice, and I will definitely view the runthrough of the tower... my last conquest of it felt woefully innefficient, and I took quite a lot of corruption from the wyrm. Luckily, as I've mentioned, this character has a wealth of corruption curing items (7 scrolls already, and five more coming as soon as I can control teleportation), plus he was born in the month of the unicorn so I have a little extra insurance against corruption...
    think I'll probably drop two of my corruptions, dispatch the banshee, clear darkforge and make an attempt on the tower

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoobnahr View Post
    add to that the fact that I got the huge weight loss corruption during my battle with the molochs, and you can see that my character was left with little more than half the strength and toughness he had at the beginning of the fight. If desirable, I could get rid of that and the regeneration corruption, which would offset the dexterity gain from weight loss... I was pretty excited to have both the nimble and weight loss corruptions for late-game purposes (rift and quickling tree), but I suppose it doesn't do me any good to go walking around with a fairly nasty corruption when that's so far off anyway...
    If you like the regeneration corruption, go ahead and keep it. It's a personal pet peeve of mine. Removing the weight loss might not be the end of the world anyway though, given your stats. The Rift doesn't require either corruption though, and you always fall your first time regardless of your attributes (known bug). There's little need for you to do the quickling tree--you will be fast enough as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoobnahr View Post
    As regards Kherab and the shield of raw steel, I took the keethrax quest at the beginning of the game, not the yriggs quest, so kherab's first quest will be to kill Guth'Alak, not Jharod... but since you mention unicorn quest and terinyo, that's probably what you meant... I probably won't go for the shield, since I already have a very good shield anyway... but I'll definitely consider it if the tower is looking like a problem at the start... can I even handle Guth'Alak right now? never fought him...
    Sorry, meant Guth. He's not that strong. You can probably kill him in 1-2 hits, honestly. The stats on the Shield of Raw steel are [20,8] {+5 To}, btw. Your shield isn't bad, but it's not in the same league as the SoRS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoobnahr View Post
    I had a feeling my nograin ring was a wedding ring, which if I remember correctly has to be wielded in the right hand (weapon slot?) by a male character to protect against the banshee.
    I have honestly never done it this way before. Check the Guidebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoobnahr View Post
    Speaking of amulets... I used the black torc the last time I beat the tower, Was under the impression it was an ideal necklace since my cursed status causes my fireproof blankets to never burn away... only been in there once before, how many do I need to last me through the whole tower if I don't wear the torc?
    One blessed blanket will get you through the Tower almost every time if you don't waste time. By that, I mean, don't explore every level--find the stairs and ascend immediately--and dig directly into the central room with the Wyrm, avoiding the pockets of elementals on the sides, and get out as soon as you have the Orb. Wearing the ankh, you should be able to get a few thousand turns out of each blanket, on average, which is more than enough. I have never needed more than two blankets. Cursing is a very weak effect; I would be very surprised to find that its effect is anywhere near as strong as the ankh, and the ankh carries lots of other super-helpful bonuses for the Wyrm, and even just regular fighting.
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