Guaranteed wish

[Silfir]

The argument for a guaranteed wish seems to be that it would make ultra endings less of a hassle to complete - is that even desirable? If you set your mind on it, you can already complete an ultra ending fairly reliably, thanks to the Darkforge pools and the Casino. Fixing the Casino would shift that somewhat to make it harder, but that doesn't seem like much of a problem to me, either, since the AoLS is the true bottleneck to begin with.

Even if you perceived the scarcity of some of the ultra ending target items as an issue, it's always preferable to fix that issue with a specific solution rather than a catch-all. If an AoLS is deemed too hard to get, build a quest around it. If the scroll of danger is an issue, put it someplace fitting and secluded; since it's a crap item in itself, you don't even have to build a quest around it. Those seem like much more flavorful and less potentially disbalancing solutions than a guaranteed wish. Once you place a guaranteed wish on the map, the scarcity of non-artifact items becomes a non-issue, and the item-collecting minigame that is part of the hack'n slay experience becomes much less enticing.

EDIT: (How about putting the AoLS on a mini-boss? Only way to save it - along with halving the duration of the fight - is pickpocketing it before you kill the guy. Benefit of that would be that you could fix Pick Pockets and keep it useful!)

[szopin]

The argument for a guaranteed wish seems to be that it would make ultra endings less of a hassle to complete - is that even desirable?

No. That too, but it would allow certain 'builds'. No wishable-only skills would remain as such. Starting the game with a plan for wish is what makes those hundreds of speedrun tries fun to watch... even when they all (ok, 9/10) end in DF. When they luck though, things get interesting...

EDIT: Few of those recorded: http://www.viddler.com/channel/darrenjohngrey check speedrun attempts

[Aielyn]

EDIT: (How about putting the AoLS on a mini-boss? Only way to save it - along with halving the duration of the fight - is pickpocketing it before you kill the guy. Benefit of that would be that you could fix Pick Pockets and keep it useful!)

Only if you can provide a second way to do it. Besides which, if it saves its life, that would imply it was wearing it, so "picking pockets" wouldn't let you obtain the amulet.

Here's a thought - make the "mini-boss" a Lawful NPC somewhere that reacts differently to different PCs:

If the PC is lawful, he is quite friendly, and may even offer the AoLS to the PC directly. Most likely, though, is that he needs an incentive to give it to the PC... something like an item request, or something like that. If the haggling skill gets modified, or a "diplomacy" style skill is introduced, the PC may be able to get him to ask for an easier item, or even offer trade for something the PC has in its possession. Obviously, the solutions below are also available, but are also obviously not as efficient.

If the PC is neutral, he is simply not interested in the PC. Talking to him will see him make dismissive gestures, refusing to even talk. For the neutral player, Picking his Pockets is the way to obtain the AoLS. Beware, though, because he's an observant guy, and picking his pockets will anger him. A failed attempt will see him equip the AoLS (removing it from the pockets) and the remainder of the scene will play out just as if the PC were chaotic.

If the PC is chaotic, this mini-boss NPC will be hostile, and will equip the AoLS on sight. In this case, the only ways to obtain the AoLS are to kill him in ways that don't trigger the AoLS. Mostly, this means petrification or sacrifice, although I'd like to see a few more ways to "save" the AoLS included into it. It may also be possible to save the AoLS by offering peace, for instance.

He could perhaps also be "testing" the PC if lawful, by asking for an object that is favoured by their god (in other words, favoured by their race). In this way, he's asking the PC to demonstrate its devotion to the cause over any sort of "treasure". This makes it quite easy for dwarves (asking for gold - although he'd ask for quite a bit) and trolls (would probably ask for some weight of rocks - say, 2000s, which would be achievable with a pile of small rocks or a couple of huge rocks), and quite difficult for hurthlings, gnomes, and drakelings (although for hurthlings and drakelings, the request would probably be generic - "a cooked meal" and "a musical instrument", respectively).

[Silfir]

(It's not like "Pick Pockets" describes a skill that absolutely requires pockets to work - just that the victim carries an item on their body that might be dislodged by sleight of hand. No reason it can't work on amulets. If people pickpocket Preserver, am I supposed to assume that whoever owned the thing wasn't wearing it at the time? Equivalent skills are called "Sleight of Hand" in other RPG systems for greater accuracy. I also don't see why there needs to be a "second way". AoLS are not plot-crucial items. There doesn't even need to be a first way, let alone a second. We'd serve the thread topic better, I think, by discussing arguments why guaranteed wishes - or AoLS - are a good or bad idea in the first place, rather than discussing minute details of silly stray thoughts intentionally put in brackets. Entirely my fault. I'm doing it again, too. Kill me.)

[Stingray1]

I don't think a guaranteed wish is something ADOM has to have. If it is desired by most, I would make it very hard to acquire. Like in my suggestion, where maybe only an endgame PC(Druid) needing a 'giant Boar skull', or so, would be able to acquire it. Those desperate for an ultra, then has the option of risking their life to save Khelavaster's and if they succeed, deserve it. Otherwise, YASD, they deserve that too.

[Archie]

Great idea with NPC wearing AoLS and requirement to kill him in special way. My vote goes for Thundarr. Those characters who aren't able to petrify him, must convert altar to chaotic, lure priest out of DT and lock (not kill) him somewhere, then confuse ancient dwarf and scarifice, I mean, sacrifice him. That's both sophisticated and chaotic.

And guaranteed wish makes no sense, I suppose.

[anon123]

Uniques can never be petrified, although using the spell on Thrundarr is a nice way to make him (and only him) hostile.

A wand of destruction is another way to kill a monster without "really" killing it.

[Silfir]

If the PC dies from self-inflicted wand of destruction, does an AoLS activate?

[Archie]

If the PC dies from self-inflicted wand of destruction, does an AoLS activate?

Definitely yes, it's hp death

[Archie]

Great idea with NPC wearing AoLS and requirement to kill him in special way. My vote goes for Thundarr. Those characters who aren't able to petrify him, must convert altar to chaotic, lure priest out of DT and lock (not kill) him somewhere, then confuse ancient dwarf and scarifice, I mean, sacrifice him.

It's impossible to sacrifice any of DT's inhabitants on altar there, even if it's turned black I like the idea anyway.