Are you guys happy now? - game getting ultra-hard-core now

[Stingray1]

Here is one that is not struggling.

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                            Character Information
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Trobegre    St:34  Le:16  Wi:14  Dx:24  To:30  Ch: 8  Ap: 9  Ma: 8  Pe:11
NC
DV/PV: 49/10   H: 165(165)   P: 6(28)   Exp: 11/172457   M: 28483

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                                   Skills
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  Athletics ................ 94    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Bridge building .......... 18    (mediocre)     [+4d5] (mr)
  Climbing ................. 81    (great)        [+3d3]
  Detect traps ............. 36    (fair)         [+4d4]
  Disarm traps ............. 30    (mediocre)     [+4d4]
  Dodge .................... 90    (great)        [+2d4]
  First aid ................ 69    (good)         [+3d4]
  Food preservation ........100    (superb)       [+1d5]
  Gemology ................. 11    (mediocre)     [+3d3]
  Haggling ................. 19    (mediocre)     [+3d3]
  Healing ..................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Herbalism ................100    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Listening ................ 99    (superb)       [+2d4]
  Literacy ................. 57    (good)         [+1]
  Mining ................... 19    (mediocre)     [+3d5]
  Pick locks ...............  7    (poor)         [+3d4]
  Pick pockets ............. 46    (fair)         [+2d4]
  Stealth ..................100    (superb)       [+3d3]
  Survival ................. 43    (fair)         [+3d4]
  Swimming ................. 78    (great)        [+3d4]

[Chris]

Then suggest reduced damage from the energy ray or higher potential toughness for some races or classes. The game won't improve if you don't make requests like these.

Yeah, because most of the requests TB has taken into consideration have really made the game better (IMO).

I'm sorry, but I just can't understand you people when it comes to things such as herbs/stairhopping, etc... If you find them game breaking, then why not exercise some self restraint? Simply don't use/abuse them. The game as it is now in pre7 offers me little joy, compared to before. As I mentioned somewhere else, I love exploring every dungeon, killing every monster, stairhopping a few levels, doing a little gremlin bombing, using every potion of exchange on D8 (not that the change to !oEX is bad, I actually like it better now) and sometimes even luring the banshee to the Animated Forest. For me, Adom was always about getting good loot. Finding a pair of 7LB on PC6 used to make my day, but that probably won't be the case now. A couple of herb patches in the UD was great stuff, and I'd spend days picking up all sorts of herbs. What's that, you find it wrong that given enough time a frail elf could get to 35 To and be as tough as a troll? This is a magic world, ffs! Anything should be possible.

I always enjoyed the early game the most and spent a very large amount of time preparing myself for mid/late. Day 40 could come and go and I would still be working on that second precrowning, or getting my Wi up high. Then I'd suddenly rush through mid game (the only exciting places being the ToEF and the EG, always killed a few copies for massive xp) and late game (only thing I got excited about here was Casino, due to items, and the greater vaults. loot, again). I understand that it's not how most people play the game, but I take no pleasure in rushing through the game, and now, in order to get loot that was so readily available before, I'll probably just have to dive from ID 25 to ID 50 or something. I'm still going to be actively not focusing on closing the chaos gate as fast as possible, but the process has become a lot more tedious and less rewarding. Thanks a bunch.

About RFEs: what could I possibly suggest that both the ones that are happy with the latest changes and I can agree upon? Not much middle ground when it comes to gremlin bombing, is there?

Yes, I'm whining a lot about this but I guess I'm just trying to vent my frustration. This is not what I was expecting when the Resurrection funding campaign was successful. I'm still hoping that enough people will complain so that TB will undo some of these changes, but I get the feeling there's too few active here on this forum, and those who are generally come up with whacky RFEs

[Carter]

I agree with some of what you say, but Gremlin bombing is definately exploit, just like killing bosses in Darkness with no possible chance to take damage. Stuff like that can go from the game because it is simply not intended.

But we need to be careful to take away the things that make the game special. The first eternium man win was wonderfully inventive, those kind of moments won't happen the way people are going.

the other thing to take into account is the changes to herb saccing means less pre crowning, and secondly, the artifact sets available are now considerably poorer.

I played a game recently where i ended dying on D50 wielding big punch because even after two greater vaults i received stuff like the silver key in greater vaults. Basically complete junk. The game is harder now than it has ever been.

[Grey]

What's that, you find it wrong that given enough time a frail elf could get to 35 To and be as tough as a troll? This is a magic world, ffs! Anything should be possible.

It's a game, so no, not anything should be possible. There must be rules and limits, easy abuses should be stamped out, and mechanics that encourage boring gameplay should be removed. This is just good game design. You'll likely disagree with this, but if you look at roguelikes across the board this has been a huge focus in recent years, and it has improved the likes of Crawl and ToME immensely. ADOM in comparison has looked old and tired, full of abuses and petty tricks that only the elite few know. This is just bad design, and in my opinion roguelikes should emphasise gameplay above all else.

And this is hardly the first time Thomas has changed the game to remove abuses. In the move from 1.0.0 to 1.1.1 killer bugs were changed to see invis and in darkness, to stop level 1 wizard abuses. Piety reduction was added (though quickly got toned down to irrelevance as it was done in far too strict a way). LOTS of people complained and stamped their feet and said this was terrible for the game, etc etc. For a while many refused to play 1.1.1, sticking to 1.0.0 instead. This is, quite frankly, an utterly typical reaction to change. All of a sudden all the special knowledge and tricks you've learned don't exist - a whole section of your mind rent irrelevant. It understandable that you find this disconcerting! But really, reflect on this a bit more. This is an opportunity to learn a whole new batch of tricks. It's like learning the game all over again, finding new tactics and ways of dealing with things. Don't you remember what that was like when you first discovered ADOM?

And don't worry, you'll see a lot of the people defending the changes here suddenly screaming in horror when Thomas starts making certain areas easier I've already seen some extremes of that in reaction to Thomas' suggestion of making the early game kinder. People only like change when it's something they initially support, and get very loud-mouthed when it's something they never expected!

Mind you, it really shouldn't be forgotten that many changes are already in to make the game easier. Blind rage has been modified (less likely, less damage, and a big DV penalty to blind raging monsters) which should be a cure for many Tower deaths - I always seem to die there when the Wyrm gets all panicky and fires multiple bolts in one round. Some star signs have been buffed, some very strong new artifacts added, more artifacts added to the general pool, several strong corruptions added, orb guardian corpses made more special, first aid buffed, pets are less rebellious, scrolls of power buffed and gardening can get herb seeds. And there's been some interface improvements and such. Thomas is clearly responsive to changes that make things easier as well as harder. Don't hold back on such suggestions, especially if they seem simple to implement (slight tweaks of numbers, etc).

I understand that it's not how most people play the game, but I take no pleasure in rushing through the game, and now, in order to get loot that was so readily available before, I'll probably just have to dive from ID 25 to ID 50 or something. I'm still going to be actively not focusing on closing the chaos gate as fast as possible, but the process has become a lot more tedious and less rewarding. Thanks a bunch.

How is killing monsters and clearing levels less tedious than pressing <> many times in a row? Also it means now that the more efficient method is cavernous levels with high spawn rates - PC5 early game and High Kings later on. This is still reasonably efficient, but a fair bit more fun (until a spider factory shows up, of course, but such is ADOM!) If the game can be fun and reward you with loot then that's win-win in my opinion.

About RFEs: what could I possibly suggest that both the ones that are happy with the latest changes and I can agree upon? Not much middle ground when it comes to gremlin bombing, is there?

I'd suggest a new thread. This one is too full of sarcasm and negativity, and that doesn't help anyone express their views rationally. Also in general players are more receptive to changes that make the player more powerful than ones which reduce the power of monsters.

Off the top of my head I'd say a 20 per cent reduction in power to the ACW's energy ray and talents on character creation that improve potential stats by +2 could be two easy and acceptable changes. Some will grumble at the former, but I'm personally amenable to the idea that it's not fair if the player can die in one round from full HP due due an unavoidable and unresistable attack.

Yes, I'm whining a lot about this but I guess I'm just trying to vent my frustration. This is not what I was expecting when the Resurrection funding campaign was successful. I'm still hoping that enough people will complain so that TB will undo some of these changes, but I get the feeling there's too few active here on this forum, and those who are generally come up with whacky RFEs

Yes, there have been some whacky RFEs :/ Generally discussing ideas openly on the forum helps them mature a bit before they hit the RFE stage, which helps them get accepted and wastes Thomas' time less. Thomas does listen to feedback, so don't be afraid to give it, but keep in mind that the more mature and rational it is (ie, not whiny and sarcastic) the more likely it'll be taken seriously. Lists also help instead of large blocks of text

[Grey]

I played a game recently where i ended dying on D50 wielding big punch because even after two greater vaults i received stuff like the silver key in greater vaults. Basically complete junk. The game is harder now than it has ever been.

Then suggest an improvement to silver key Or its removal if it can't be saved (I'm not sure it can). Same for other weak artifacts. There will always be some that are almost deliberately bad (black tome, I'm looking at you!) but we should ensure the overall set is decent. And suggest new artifacts! More weapons are always welcome, and likely a few have already been added since your last glorious fall at D50. The mist staff and chaos maul are pretty snazzy.

Big Punch is still a good weapon mind. And you shouldn't rely on artifacts for weapons - it's immensely bad luck if you go a whole game not finding any good eternium gear. Or lots of slaying ammo. I don't want to sound too condescending here, but if you show me the flg I'm sure I could point to some ways you could have done better. I don't believe any character that can do the Mana Temple need fall at D50, except perhaps to extreme corruption. Death in ADOM is of course tragic, and at that late stage immensely upsetting, but after the emotional comedown there are usually things to reflect on and ways to improve your play.

[Carter]

Then suggest an improvement to silver key Or its removal if it can't be saved (I'm not sure it can). Same for other weak artifacts. There will always be some that are almost deliberately bad (black tome, I'm looking at you!) but we should ensure the overall set is decent. And suggest new artifacts! More weapons are always welcome, and likely a few have already been added since your last glorious fall at D50. The mist staff and chaos maul are pretty snazzy.

definitely snazzy and hope we see some good artifacts come out in the future. Looking forward to more in the perserver/bracers of war area. The hulking armor etc.

And you shouldn't rely on artifacts for weapons - it's immensely bad luck if you go a whole game not finding any good eternium gear. Or lots of slaying ammo. I don't want to sound too condescending here, but if you show me the flg I'm sure I could point to some ways you could have done better. I don't believe any character that can do the Mana Temple need fall at D50, except perhaps to extreme corruption. Death in ADOM is of course tragic, and at that late stage immensely upsetting, but after the emotional comedown there are usually things to reflect on and ways to improve your play.

There is always a way to do it, sure i could have spent time building up archery, getting slaying ammo from the dragon caves etc etc. But corruption was beginning to be a serious issue and eventually the death was from corruption with only fisty to go. When you get a bunch of crap and you hit D50 after getting a lovely black tome you kinda get a bit annoyed. What whatever. He is dead now.

[tootboot]

If you don't want change sprung upon you, you can't be silent when the changes are proposed. Some of the RFEs were up for literally months before they were implemented. Obviously your wishes can't be taken into account if you don't express them.

[Laukku]

I wholeheartedly agree with Grey. Boring, scummy gameplay should be axed, and the game can be made easier in other areas to rebalance it. If you have an issue with game balance, post a RFE for discussion!

Some of the changes I'm not too keen on though; Both nerfing 7LBs and making you get only one pair per wish is a bit too much IMO. Also, making Yulgash's and ASB's stats higher is unnecessary when they're already been made more powerful in other ways.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

+1 to everything Grey said.

About wizards and the ToEF: well, maybe play dwarf wizards instead of elven wizards, to get more To? OK, you'll be worse at magic. But that's what games are about: choice. And elves in fantasy worlds are definitely not supposed to be tanks.

By the way, there are also potions of boost To. And strategies with wizards to damage the ACW without getting hit a single time (dig a corridor, stand at a diagonal and cast bouncing bolts diagonally at the corridor). I've done this several times, as I never scummed for herbs. You're playing a wizard, FFS, it's about being intelligent and cunning, not about being a tank. Come up with a good battle tactic, there are several. And killing the ACW will actually feel much better.

About people who like to get lots of loot: I think you could propose that loot drops be multiplied by, say, 1.5. I think getting lots of resources is good, just not by mindless and tedious scumming.

[Blasphemous]

Most of the changes listed in the first post are unacceptable to me.
I mean ADOM has always been a game of possibilities, game of multiple options and tactics. If you choose to remove some of those strategies, you're removing content from the game and trying to direct gameplay on a single path - your path. No scumming, nerfing, giving monsters extra powers, trees immune to Banshee wail... come on, all of those were strategies that took a while to discover and to properly set up and utilize, you had to think a bit and consider everything carefully.

They resulted exactly from the game's openness and multitude of options available.
If you chose to wield ultra-heavy clothes as your weapon - be my guest.
Why is nobody asking to remove that ridiculous option from the game?
Because it wouldn't make it either simpler or more difficult.
But it would make sense, as wielding something that most definitely is not a weapon and using it as such is idiotic.

Why so many monsters shrug your bolts with startling effectivity and yet no PC char can do that?
Wouldn't that be fair for once? Wouldn't that make sense? But no, it would be OP, sorry buddy.

Why you can only dip one potion of gain attributes in a potion of holy water and yet you can dip 19 rings or a huge hulking armor? How much sense does it make? None. Instead make blessing large items or heaps of items require more holy water. Simple as that.

[Balance] Nerf Seven League Boots

Why not instead make it possible for monsters to equip them and gain all the relevant bonuses? Imagine a greater moloch putting them on after picking up a random drop.
But hey, not a chance for that to happen, it's better to nerf an item that has had its usefulness established since I don't know when.
That way people will have to re-learn the game all over again, that's just not right.

Making killer bugs harder to tame? As if they aren't already difficult to tame. I have yet to count how many bards I lost because they are so capricious.

Elements of the game such as banshee should not be changed.
They were introduced for a reason and if a player has been ingenious enough, he could find a way to use that to his advantage.
Setting up a banshee hut in the forest is no easy task.
To reap the rewards, one has to do the griff quest, then descend deep enough through some high danger areas, lure banshee up, passing once again through those dangerous areas then you need to have a wand of door creation and means of locking them, then some source of web to trap the banshee within, then again to trap yourself somewhere away from the trees and some scrolls of chaos resistance to mitigate the results of spending too much w5 time in a corrupting area <D10.
What I'm getting at is that the final outcome is a reward for the player that performed all those things. It's not an easy task.

Also in relation to *foo* elven wizards and their lack of toughness - I usually pick wizards because I like to rely on spells alone.
But with each subsequent change and version of the game, wizards had to rely more and more on conventional means of killing monsters, mostly due to shrugging of bolts which is so annoying.
Why not change the utterly useless lvl 32 or 40 wizard class powers to something like "monsters are no longer able to shrug your bolts" or reduce the chance that a monster will shrug a bolt by 80-90&#37;.
That would surely make wizard a worthy char to level up in the new, highly difficult ADOM.
Perhaps the other power could be slightly different - it should give you a ~90% chance of shrugging incoming bolts, with or without alertness.

Rather than making summoned monsters/gremlins immune to pickpocketing (doesn't make sense at all) make it possible for ALL monsters to randomly pickpocket the PC with %chance of success when hostile and in melee range.

Why liches/wyrms and some other monsters can use some magic balls or *glowing* balls that the PC cannot resist?
And add to that the fact that PC can't use that spell either, on any char, save for spell/wand of magic missiles which, as you can guess, gets shrugged more often than not.
Instead of rather useless sleep resistance (in the recent past ~20 games I think I was hypnotized by a harpy maybe twice, both times I eventually woke up and killed it), a general term of "magic resistance" should be introduced to mitigate that.

Why remove the option to throw potions? That option absolutely makes sense, it's a means to disable a tough opponent by the PC, just as PC can be disabled by a tough enemy in so many ways.
Why do you want to remove that? Balance it out instead. Make it dependent on weapons skills - thrown rocks or something. That way there's a high chance you miss.

Why make more monsters see in the dark?
Instead make them try to randomly swing around like the PC does with a chance to hit the PC and bypass DV/PV (as it's dark and the PC also doesn't see anything/can't successfully defend against attacks).

Why many monsters can attack multiple times in a turn? Maybe the PC should also be able to do that given the right conditions are met? (char lvl, maybe DX/speed stats, I'm just guessing here)

Why almost all monster attack high level PC on sight? How many times did you have to mutilate by acid stream or turn a rat or a kobold to a mangled heap with with your uber lvl char on D44 heading for the chaos gate? Make low level, standard monsters flee from you at some point after becoming powerful.
When your PC has lvl 40-50, the game describes you as legendary. Make it so that it's not just words but has a direct impact on the gameplay.
Again, that would make sense, given the PC behavior when entering that locked tension room on D47 only to discover 20 extremely experienced emperor liches ready to get your hp to -1000 in one turn. Run for your life as this is something that no sane char on any level can face. Save maybe for some superb artifact-spoiled 99 staters with 398475 resistances/immunities, 4 digit HP and AotME with grand weapon mastery and effectivity 50 fire ball spell.

You see what I'm getting at?
Don't propose to make the game only harder by removing scummy techniques and raising difficulty bar, just because.
Give something in return. Leave the multitude of options to the game but make the rules more consistent.
Force the game to make more sense, give player the options that monsters have and vice versa.