Duelist - IMO needs rebalancing

[kordi82]

In the recent game I tried duelist and IMO they need some rebalancing.

1. Their class powers start to kick in a little bit too late. All through the early game shield and heavy armor is defenitely more tempting than tapping into their class powers. I think that somewhere after the pyramid it finally started to make sense to me to skip shield and go with mummy wrapping to activate class powers. This spoils a little bit of fun IMO.

2. They are WAAAAAAAAY to heavily penalized for ranged weapons. Common, 10 times penalty with no access to spells? Farmer can shoot arrows better than duelist? Somehow this doesn't seem right. Killing some monsters in melee later on in the game is a real pain in the rear even if you can make 2,5 hits in a turn... i.e. Emperor Lich or Ancient Chaos Wyrm come to my mind.

All in all the class bore me pretty quickly and I started next playthrough with Merchant (probably the crappiest class of them all ).

[grobblewobble]

I'm sorry but I don't agree.. at very low level, punching through armor already makes "playing in style" a reasonable option. If you find a large crystal shield or great two hander very early on then yes, you are better off using that for the early game. But is that really a problem? If you're flexible you will always have some edge over someone who swears to a certain style.

As they progress their power really goes through the roof. By the endgame they really are the very best melee class. A high level duelist with Executor beats even a paladin with Justifier. Duelists do not need missiles, ever. They are strong enough to kill greater molochs in a fair fight, without any sort of fancy footwork or disabling. Imo it is only fair that their early game is not the strongest (and they're by no means weak even in the early game).

[Stingray1]

I have to agree with Grobblewobble, we can't have them be powerful from start to finish. My Duelist victor did not use missiles or shields. The start was tricky with karmics, oozes, etc. But hey there has to be some challenges.

When they get that Mastery class power they are IMO just too strong actually.

I would rather say CK with the right corruptions is unbalanced and too strong from start to finish, thick gauntlets has to go flying.

[kordi82]

I'm sorry but I don't agree.. at very low level, punching through armor already makes "playing in style" a reasonable option. If you find a large crystal shield or great two hander very early on then yes, you are better off using that for the early game. But is that really a problem? If you're flexible you will always have some edge over someone who swears to a certain style.

Hmm.... Maybe I am missed something. Do I understand this right that with one handed weapon and light armor they can bypass PV? and this is NOT the same as find weakness?

But even if... I still believe that penalty on ranged weapons is too much. I understand 2-3 times, but not 10.

[grobblewobble]

Hmm.... Maybe I am missed something. Do I understand this right that with one handed weapon and light armor they can bypass PV? and this is NOT the same as find weakness?

Yes, exactly. When they meet the equipment + burden requirements you will now and then see the combat message "you locate a weak spot in the armor of the -foo-" (happens even at level 1). That means you just punched through its armor, as if your weapon was "of penetration". Find weakness is something else, it increases critical hits, which deal double damage. These effects stack, so you can score critical hits that ignore armor.

[kordi82]

Yes, exactly. When they meet the equipment + burden requirements you will now and then see the combat message "you locate a weak spot in the armor of the -foo-" (happens even at level 1). That means you just punched through its armor, as if your weapon was "of penetration". Find weakness is something else, it increases critical hits, which deal double damage. These effects stack, so you can score critical hits that ignore armor.

Nice, but still early game I am much more concerend with PV and health than with my weapon dmg.
Nevertheless I believe that ranged weapon penalty is too much.

[grobblewobble]

Nevertheless I believe that ranged weapon penalty is too much.

Well, there are other classes with a penalty that effectively blocks one option completely. Beastfighters can't use melee weapons at all, or at least they get a similar penalty. Mindcrafters can forget about book learning.

So the question is: is this a workable challenge, or does it make the class too hard? I had no trouble winning with duelists, without using any missile weapons. What exactly is the reason you feel they are needed?

[Grey]

They still have wands for some ranged tactics. And missiles can still be of use even at low levels of mastery. Personally I love that they are a thematic challenge with some super-powers, especially since before their introduction melee was always seen as the boring and sometimes impossible option.

[JellySlayer]

2. They are WAAAAAAAAY to heavily penalized for ranged weapons. Common, 10 times penalty with no access to spells? Farmer can shoot arrows better than duelist? Somehow this doesn't seem right. Killing some monsters in melee later on in the game is a real pain in the rear even if you can make 2,5 hits in a turn... i.e. Emperor Lich or Ancient Chaos Wyrm come to my mind.

Well, duelists do get the concentration skill, so they're not completely hopeless casters in the late game. By the endgame, they're plenty strong enough to tank almost any powerful creature without fear anyway--their damage output probably exceeds any class except maybe archers. The missile penalty is severe, but it doesn't mean you can't use missiles at all--it just means you suck with them compared to other classes. Missile ranks aren't so very important in the grand scheme of things; I've finished lots of characters with <6 ranks in missiles.

All in all the class bore me pretty quickly

I'm not surprised that they bored you quickly if you completely ignored all of the stuff that makes them interesting! It's like playing a non-casting wizard or a non-missile archer.

Overall, I'd consider duelists among their easier melee classes to play. Probably on par with monks or beastfighters (who play quite similarly).

[gym21]

Having won with a duelist on my previous playthrough I was worried that this thread would be about nerfing them! Anyway, I see this as Grey does -- a thematic challenge. And I love how they play completely uniquely; by level 18 or so they can melee things nobody else in their right mind would even consider trying.

PS: High elven duelists have it pretty easy at the start. Elven chain mail is lovely.