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Thread: Thoughts on server global highscore

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singbird View Post
    Well, it would prevent the type of scumming that you win many times with only one start. But that's not really the problem I'd think. I mean, would be kind of suspicious if there were 10 high elven archers born on the same day with the same crowning gift, etc. This idea would do nothing for the type of scumming that you backup your save and restore it if you die.
    I think it should work. If you die, you PC is stored in your local highscore list (with its own unique number). So if you restore backup save file and die again (or win), there would be two entries with same unique number in your local highscore list*. During synchronization, every character from your highscore is imported on server, not only those who managed to win the game. So if server imports my local highscore list (or just update) and detects two entries with same ID number, it would refuse to accept it - entries don't have to be flagged by "winners". Question is what if one entry made on your local high score, second did not. Well probably it can be worked around by storing PC unique numbers somewhere besides highscore, and numbers would be compared with every attempt to change highscore.

    * This idea should actually work offline also.

    @Blasphemous - all you wrote is true... but I still think save scumming is not a minor problem, as it is probably most common and easy (and at the same time effective) way to cheat. I don't think that many players uses cheat engine programs or even heard about them (for example I'm a long time Adom player and didn't heard about it up to this day).

  2. #12
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    For me "save scumming" means making backup copies of your save game, so that you can continue in case your PC dies. There is no way to detect this (except maybe on the ADOM operating system, but that's not available yet).

    You probably think of "using a single save game to create multiple highscore entries". But since you can modify your local highscore file too, adding unique PC IDs would not help.

    Our hope is that

    a) players don't cheat
    b) possible cheaters are reported (Thomas thinks it's realistic that the community can detect entries that look suspicious)

    Since all highscore entries are bound to a specific user account, we can ban the cheaters' account and delete his entries.
    “It's a cruel and random world, but the ChAoS is all so beautiful.” ― Hiromu Arakawa

  3. #13
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    It would also help if each player could get X highscore entries regardless of his position in the highscore list.

    That way, if there are cheaters in the highscores, at least we could still compare ourselves to our friends or to people we know.

    Many games on Steam with online highscores have filters to show friends only, and it's a source of a lot of fun trying to outrank your friends, even if you can't aspire to be #1 on the global highscore.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt View Post
    For me "save scumming" means making backup copies of your save game, so that you can continue in case your PC dies. There is no way to detect this (except maybe on the ADOM operating system, but that's not available yet).
    If you are willing and able to add replay functionality to ADOM (recording initial RNG seed + all meaningful user commands, which consume a turn) - this could be solved.

    Upload replay with the highscore, refuse any replays with the same RNG seed, check if replay is played correctly on the server. Could be CPU-intensive, though, even without the graphics.

    However, this is probably too much of work to do. Would be a very nice feature, though

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt
    But since you can modify your local highscore file too, adding unique PC IDs would not help
    What if PC ID would be stored somewhere else, in non editable place (well at least not editable by those without decent programming/hacking skills)?

    Yes, basically for me using single save to create multiple highscore entries = using backed up copies in case your PC dies - because every death result in highscore entry (in case of full HS not every, but as I wrote before probably it can be handled out).

  6. #16
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    Just some thoughts on what has been said:

    Am I understanding correctly that there won't be a global highscore list only one for every user, basically the same it is now, but stored on the server? I think I'm misunderstanding though.

    If so then it doesn't really matter at all whether they cheated.

    Also, the way I understand statrollers, is that you enter your desired stats and the statroller just keeps rolling and discarding characters until the desired one is rolled.

    It does not matter if it takes time, the cheater just goes to the cinema, work, sleep, whatever while the statroller is doing its thing.

    For me it makes much more sense to just use a memory editor like Blasphemous mentioned. High stats can difinitely make an ADoM game easier and speadier for a higher score.

    Also people savescum for wishes from pools, pre/post crownings, corpse effects, etc. all making for an easier/faster game.

    I actually also thought of asdf's suggestion, but doesn't every motherboard model have different RNG lists or whatever they are called. Anyway, if another process calls the RNG then everything is out of sync.

    As jt said, let's see.
    Last edited by Stingray1; 10-16-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt View Post
    ADOM operating system
    Is this a joke, or do you plan on coding it at some point in the future?

    Our hope is that

    a) players don't cheat
    b) possible cheaters are reported (Thomas thinks it's realistic that the community can detect entries that look suspicious)
    The unofficial Hall of Fame has relied on point A throughout the years. I personally think highly of the community, because the game attracts a much different crowd than whatever FPS is trendy this year. There will be people attempting to cheat, and some might get away with it if they do it discreetly (what's the fun on that anyway... you won the game using a cheat tool instead of skill and missed on the things that make ADOM be ADOM, congratulations). But I don't think it would be a huge problem. If you can somehow find a way to discourage savescumming, the simplest and most obvious method to cheat for a newcomer, and maybe another sanity check, that would be enough. The idea is stopping the casual cheater, like the game already does by preventing SVGs and temporary files from being edited, not all of them.

    PS: since savescumming is a legitimate way to learn the game (although not to win it), I wouldn't suggest a "hard" punishment for it. The suggestion of giving every character a unique serial number embedded in the savegame, and silently blocking high score submissions for multiple PCs with the same S/N, would be fine I think.
    "And light there be!"

  8. #18
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    @asdf: actually ADOM already has a recording mode, but Thomas said he could never get it to fully work. So it's not enabled and would probably need extensive testing before using it to verify highscore entries on the server (but I like the idea).

    @Stingray1: no, a global highscore list is planned (i.e the combination of all highscores from all users), but each highscore is bound to the user (account) who uploaded it. For now we only planned a minimum score that needs to be reached before the entry is added (to prevent filling the list will characters that die after a few steps). Otherwise the list will be "unlimited", so every player can upload as many highscores as he creates (this might change in the future depending on who much load the server can handle).

    The random number generator is purely software and doesn't rely on any system information/counters.

    @anon123: it was a joke. It seems everyone builds an OS these days, so why not build one specifically for ADOM?!
    “It's a cruel and random world, but the ChAoS is all so beautiful.” ― Hiromu Arakawa

  9. #19
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    I cheat often in adom, for testing or pure fun purposes, but never post YAVP or get into any highscore lists with PCs made that way.
    Occasionally I feel like playing and completing the game without cheating/savescumming, and I closed the gate about a dozen times with legit chars.
    I like playing on the public SSH server since it prevents both savescumming and memory edition via cheat engine-like programs.
    Technically you can still cheat but it's much more difficult and simply not worth it.
    Besides I can actually compare my results to other players, knowing that they have also not cheated or save scummed.
    I suppose most people here know enough about each other to assume nobody is cheating against other players to see who's "better".
    I for one never compare my cheated PCs with anybody since it's simply not fair. How other people approach this is anybody's guess.
    "Hell is empty and all the devils are here."

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon123 View Post
    The unofficial Hall of Fame has relied on point A throughout the years. I personally think highly of the community, because the game attracts a much different crowd than whatever FPS is trendy this year.
    But be aware that one of the goals of the campaign is to attract a larger crowd into ADOM. With graphics, sound and steam support, it will no longer be a game for a bunch of hardcore geeks like us. I have no doubts that cheaters will appear if cheating is easy.

    However, as I said, I think if the high score is large enough (or guarantees a number of entries per player) and you can filter by friends, it would be OK even if there are cheaters. Although the recording idea, if it could be implemented, would be awesome (and not only for highscore purposes).

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