Elementalist rebalancing

[Silfir]

I still don't understand why we need to touch their book learning at all. Right now elementalists aren't played mainly because wizards are so good. The solution there isn't to make elementalists worse.

Right now, there is a case to be made for playing elementalists over wizards: They have better access to spells in the early game, before the books you want or need are abundant, and so have a more consistent and overall easier early game. While they taper off mid- to late game compared to wizards, they're still extremely powerful by virtue of being spellcasters - more powerful than most other classes in the game. Combine the easier early game and the still amazing mid- to late game, and there is plenty of reason to play an elementalist over a wizard.

The more I read these debates, the more I get the sense that comparing everything under the sun to wizards is where the problems begin. It's not really the fault of elementalists or druids for that matter that, when evaluating a class, our mouths start to water as we imagine ourselves standing in the midst of hordes of foes acid balling them until our fingertips dissolve. Wizards are just about the only spellcasting class that can flaunt their overabundant magic power in this manner, it's true. (At least, with that amount of ease. Other classes can find ball spellbooks and get decent amounts of castings. 400 Fireball, incidentally, is more than decent.) But that doesn't make either elementalists, necromancers, priests or even druids obsolete. They can still read. They still learn spells. They will still have great repertoires come late game. It doesn't distinguish them from other spellcasting classes or from wizards - but it's no less an essential part of what makes them fun or worthwhile to play. Take spellbooks away from them and you have to absolutely bend over backwards developing alternate features and super special awesome class powers to have a hope of preventing them from booking their ticket to obsolescence, something Thomas can't really afford to do this late in development. Mindcrafters are not very widely used and also arguably inferior to proper spellcasters (including druids), but they still have some appeal because some mindcraft does things spells cannot.

[_Ln_]

I advise those who say that the amount of castings is enough to look up the spreadsheet. I actually increased the overall number (cumulative from lvl 1 to lvl 50) of castings for ball spells 10 times in my suggestions to make it any reasonable. Frankly, I don't think you know what you are talking about. You don't run out of Burning Hands, Fire Bolt and Frost Bolt, that's true - because you get 6000+ castings cumulatively in each of these spells. If you find it fun to play the game with just 3 spells as a so-called master of the elements, that's just great. And the only lightning-based spell you get at lvl20 and increase it by 5 points per level. Are you even serious about it being as it should be?

I've pondered Mystic Shovel, but it kinda undermines the whole negligible point of lvl50 class power.

[Singbird]

The more I read these debates, the more I get the sense that comparing everything under the sun to wizards is where the problems begin.

Not really. I'd be happy if elementalists would be distinguished by *something*, anything at all as the masters of elemental magic they're supposed to be. It could be that their level 12 class power gives a chance to protect their equipment from shock destruction. It could be that their earthquake is so awesome that they can bring down walls in places you normally cannot with earthquake. It could be that they are the only ones with improved fireball. But right now they have nothing, nothing at all. Well they do have elemental storm and summon elemental, but the former is useless and the latter can be done by anyone, even if not in a guaranteed manner.

something Thomas can't really afford to do this late in development. Mindcrafters are not very widely used and also arguably inferior to proper spellcasters (including druids), but they still have some appeal because some mindcraft does things spells cannot.

... So what do elementalists do that spells cannot? Mindcrafters are great exactly because they do stuff spells cannot. Elementalists are not great because they do nothing better than a wizard. They are good for some combinations like maybe drakeling/orc and for trolls for some emergency spells. But if we're talking proper spellcasting races, my elementalists have never really been ahead in spells at any point in the game.

Personally I'm not expecting any of this ever to be implemented. Otherwise I would start with my ideas for fighters and melee combat penalties for spellcasters. It's just brainstorming.

[GordonOverkill]

Elementalists are not great because they do nothing better than a wizard.

Great access to offensive spells in the early game. With wizards it happened to me quite some times that I ran out of offensive spells early on. With Elementalists that happened to me not once.

[gut]

I will agree that we have too many nerfed wizards. I'm not even against nerfed wizards, but we just have too many.

[Carter]

I will agree that we have too many nerfed wizards. I'm not even against nerfed wizards, but we just have too many.

You could probably lose the druid class all together tbh, replace it with something decent.

If you look at the hall of fame etc, druids are the least represented class because their class powers suck.

[magpie]

You know, I don't recall Thomas ever saying that ADOM classes should be 'balanced' and 'equally viable'. This isn't World of Warcraft ... or <shudder> that trainwreck that is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.

[Stingray1]

All the classes are unique. Each one has their own little special thing about them. I like it like that. I have and would never consider other spellcasters nerfed wizards, because that is not what they are. Wizards are boring to play.

I somewhat agree that Elementalists should have little more trouble reading spellbooks, but not much. They get their spell knowledge from within, not from a stupid book. Giving them infinite knowledge in their spells doesn't make sense, they still have to meditate a bit on getting that spell knowledge.

A druids class powers is within what one would expect from a druid's class powers. I and I'm sure others do play them. I play all classes and races as determined by fate.

[GordonOverkill]

I agree with Stingray. Just a while ago I played a complete run with an Elementalist that I really enjoyed. Maybe they are weaker than wizards, but honestly: how cares? They are still easily strong enough to allow a successful game. If you rather want the toughest professions, well, then play a wizard.
To me it's great to have some more variety among casters (and I don't care too much if their class-powers are actually usefull or not... it still adds alot to the feeling to know that they have got these powers).
Especially for fate-runs it's great to have a little more of a random challange factor. You roll a druid and say "Okay, at least a caster... and I don't have to care about cats." and another day you roll a wizard and say "Great, fate smiles upon me! Now let's hope not to mess it up!"

[Al-Khwarizmi]

But most of the changes proposed are precisely to give more variety, not to make elementalists more similar to wizards in any way.