Elementalist rebalancing

[Stingray1]

I'm not sure why you think that people who have won the game don't reroll their characters.

I'm sure many do quit and roll again, but each roll counts as a loss. You can do the study with re-rolls allowed too and I can assure you that if everyone plays each character to his best abilities, at least half of the winners won't be GEWs.

Listen, my point is that counting the wins of each R/C in the appropriate forums, hall of fame, whatever means absolutely nothing. Because those people who posted the wins did not play each and every R/C more or less the same amount of times. One can not gauge which is the strongest R/C by it, especially when people are rerolling on top of that.

P.S. One thing, I think, you can say is that a lot of people play GEWs a lot.

[JellySlayer]

Yes, people play the easy classes more than they play the hard classes. That's kind of the point. GEWs get played a lot because they're easy and, as a result, they produce a lot of winners. On a percentage basis, yes, it's entirely possible that Troll Mindcrafters have a higher win rate than GEWs. That's not because TMs are easier than GEWs. It's because the only people who are stupid enough to play Troll Mindcrafters are people who are really good at the game, and can win with any character.

[_Ln_]

Dark elves don't just come with horrible toughness; they get crap for prices with Waldenbrook's, which doesn't sound like much but makes more of a hassle of the midgame at times than people give it credit for. It's a testament to how good Alertness and Find Weakness are that they're not completely terrible.

We should probably make another thread for that in case someone new joins the elementalists' discussion. Or revive one of the latest on this topic.

I'm still going to break my own suggestion and state that you can't judge races without taking into account class combos. The only exception are drakes and ratlings.
Finally, this is also a matter of playstyle. As I typically play elves, and dark elves among them about 80%, I've stopped caring about Waldenbrook ages ago. DElven toughness is also the highest among elves.

I also enjoy playing humans while everyone else considers them a piece of crap.
Having been aged to death several times in the endgame, I almost never play orcs and trolls.

[LFk]

I actually would really enjoy to see an elementalist that is far more skewed toward his unique trait (much like a mindcrafter). I think the thematic nature of the changes would give the class a more unique feel. I understand that there's a good amount of work to be done, though, and this isn't high priority. Still, the forums are for discussion, and this is definitely a fine idea to spice up a class that always played like a slightly less wizard-y wizard.

An additional offensive class power, like their level 32 class power, "Level 32: Can invoke a special 'elemental storm' attack -- fires a random elemental bolt (fire, lightning or frost) into each of the eight directions -- at the cost of 120 PP.", being available at level 6, 12 etc. instead of the resistances would be an excellent way to give them offensive options in exchange for removing or severely handicapping their ability to read spellbooks.

I'm still going to break my own suggestion and state that you can't judge races without taking into account class combos. The only exception are drakes and ratlings.

About the little side-discussion in this thread, this is a fair statement. The Race can't be considered without the Class. Labeling Dark Elves as "third worst" or "worst" or "second best" seems arbitrary when not considering the class. As far as Wizards and other caster-heavy classes go, i'd agree they are generally less capable than their elven brethren due to somewhat lower learning. The great Find Weakness skill is also wasted on casters. The excellent skill-set, however, makes them extremely capable as an elven fighting class. Dark Elven Paladins are in fact one of my favorite classes and one I regard as very, very easy due to excellent starting equipment, particularly the 10s Elven Chain Mail that makes the early game much less threatening. The high Ma and Dx potential gives them an easier transition from melee combat to ranged/casting relative to other races, and Find Weakness really helps in all facets of physical combat.

Of course this may be attributed to the strength of the class itself, as Drake and Dwarven Paladins are also regarded as powerful and easy. I note the latter is the default suggestion for beginner "melee" players (this is new right? I've never noticed this before.). Still, I'd defend that there are clear advantages that DEs afford for versatile fighting classes (those that want to utilize casting or ranged), over other races . Find Weakness should make them at least above average for Archer or ranged-focused classes, and I'd say they are universally weaker than other races for pure-melee. Their stats, as all low-Str/To races do, make them very difficult for PCs that start with low PV and still rely to some extent on melee combat. They also do headline what i'd regard to be the weakest PC in the game, the Dark Elven Merchant

My preferences for racial 'power' tends to focus on their skillset, of which elves have great ones in general, and the lack of vulnerability to one-hit age death, aka the most frustrating (careless) death i've ever had (screw orcs).

By the way, this is the first i've come back to ADOM forums after submitting my boss-monster. It looks like there have been a lot of excellent changes, and I look forward to playing a game or two! I did make a PC, but am debating playing it through, as I don't want to spoil the game too much, and I'd love to play the final product all at once...

[Deathwind]

The elemental storm is one of the worst powers in the game. It costs a lot of pp, has a good chance of hurting/killing you, and monsters will still shrug the bolts. I think the idea of giving them a ring of fire/ice power in it's place would do a lot to help them stand out as elemental masters without breaking them.

[JellySlayer]

My preferences for racial 'power' tends to focus on their skillset, of which elves have great ones in general, and the lack of vulnerability to one-hit age death, aka the most frustrating (careless) death i've ever had (screw orcs).

I think this is one area where I differ from a lot of people. I consider skills to be basically the least important consideration as far as race is concerned. Starting stats/equipment (and now, potentials) are much more important, IMHO. I'd happily take an extra 5 points of starting PV over Alertness.

[gut]

hmm, I might agree about the +5 PV

also, if you aren't scumming, you aren't playing adom

also, I still just say give them acid bolt at, say, xl 12 and be done with it

[Stingray1]

also, if you aren't scumming, you aren't playing adom

That is a fitting signature. ADoM is a role-playing game.

Maybe, there can be just a question system at character creation: "Are you a scummer [Y/n]?" Answering yes just gives you unlimited castings of everything and high stats. Would save a lot of trouble and time wasting.

[Moeba]

I'm quitting this thread, both parties have already said what they had to say.

I think the elementalist is a perfectly playable class with enough difference from other spellcasters. If acid balling hordes of monsters is what you want, just play a wizard or priest. Others want to play in a different way (the acid balling does sound pretty boring), so they take other characters.

If there's anything to be changed, I'd go for the feature that ball spells inflict corruption on the caster

[Evil Knievel]

Some Bonus along the lines of: increase the Willpower effect in all calculations that affect elemental spells I would like to see.

Now that extreme stats are no longer easy to get, the elementalist could be the ones who still get the big ball spells
and i guess some more damage as well.

I would not change anything else. At least, no nerf required.