Savescumming abolished?

[GordonOverkill]

But honestly, why should one try to actively prevent savescumming? If somebody enjoys to play that way... why shouldn't he? Because I don't enjoy it? That doesn't seem to be a good reason.

[Stingray1]

People may cheat if they want to, but it should not be made easy, because then the game fails at what it was designed for.
I think ADOM was designed to be played many times with different characters. The player showing slow progress with each character and experience the re-playability and randomness of each new adventure, each game being different from the previous from start to finish. Also the game ending when your character dies adds a special element to gameplay, which immortalism takes away. The same as tetris does when those block are getting very near the top. I hope this makes sense.

The player is of course free to use the software however (s)he pleases.

[LFk]

I think a post was made a while back how there was no intent to stop save scumming. I agree with this. Why does it matter?

The game currently can be played as it was designed. There's no failure to achieve it, the only "failure" is on the player to stop him/herself from save scumming.
If a player derives more enjoyment from true save points (as in, non-permanent death), then so be it. These are players of the ADOM audience, in my opinion. I would rather have them than alienate them, and maybe with more experience, they'll also try the true roguelike style.

In my opinion, enforced integrity is not necessary. If you enjoy that kind of thing, I might suggest playing on the server that Alucard has been so kind to host. I really like it as I can access my characters from anywhere to boot, and the files are not saved locally.

[anon123]

There's no mechanism in the game to block savescumming. There's only a couple of basic checks to deter casual cheating by manipulating savegames or temporary files. As it stands right now, I wouldn't want development time spent changing either. Savescumming is a legitimate method for newcomers to avoid frustration with the game's high difficulty, and older players to tinker and research things. And any determined person will find a way to cheat no matter the protections implemented.

But this stance might be made invalid once ADOM makes it to Steam and attacts a much larger and varied audience. I would hope most of them will be non-troublemakers, but only time will tell.

[Stingray1]

> Savescumming is a legitimate method for newcomers to avoid frustration with the game's high difficulty, ...

If you are not frustrated while learning to play adom you are simply not learning to play adom and that is much more important than having people try and play the game for a month or two getting bored and frustrated and leaving.

Comments like these are millions times more frustrating to me than learning to play adom was.

Let's take me as an example. I'm not blowing my own horn(even if I was that is irrelevant), just trying to get the facts out in the open.

I never cheated or read one spoiler and managed to win in 2-3 years. Adom was also the first roguelike I ever played, until very recently. That is why I keep hammering on these points and not because I'm trying to be an irritation. I will keep hammering on them until new players gets the same benefits.

[LFk]

> Savescumming is a legitimate method for newcomers to avoid frustration with the game's high difficulty, ...

If you are not frustrated while learning to play adom you are simply not learning to play adom and that is much more important than having people try and play the game for a month or two getting bored and frustrated and leaving.

Comments like these are millions times more frustrating to me than learning to play adom was.

Let's take me as an example. I'm not blowing my own horn(even if I was that is irrelevant), just trying to get the facts out in the open.

I never cheated or read one spoiler and managed to win in 2-3 years. Adom was also the first roguelike I ever played, until very recently. That is why I keep hammering on these points and not because I'm trying to be an irritation. I will keep hammering on them until new players gets the same benefits.

I completely disagree with this viewpoint.

Not everyone finds what you did enjoyable, and not everyone will want to spend 2-3 years to complete a game. You're extrapolating your personal experience onto others. Much like trying to convince someone who doesn't like fish that fish is awesome, repeating how much you love fish, and that it's totally worth it while cramming it down their throat.

I think it's great that you played through unspoiled, and had a positive experience with ADOM. I admit I wish I could've avoided some spoilers, but then again I pretty much had to read them for an ultra ending (I seriously admire whoever managed to finish an Ultra with no spoilers)

I'd much rather, however, that ADOM catch a wider audience. I'd also rather the community be more welcoming of people who do want to try the game slowly, and understand that enjoyment of a game varies from person to person, rather than yelling at them to stop cheating.

Just please remember that:
1) Not everyone is you.
2) Not everyone will find the permadeath aspect of ADOM fun.
3) A game should be played in a way that is fun to the user. Frustration with reassurances from the community that "it's worth it in the end" is not appealing to most.
4) Many players practice save scumming in the beginning, and after getting their bearings straight, will progress to playing it legit little by little. I'd say a vast portion of the current community choose this path, players that may have initially been driven away. If you can believe it, this is a big part of why ADOM is resurrected in the first place and alive today.
5) A wider audience is good for ADOM, and possibly can generate either publicity or more revenue for further development for TB.

[Stingray1]

Yes, LFk. No one is me. You can however, appreciate that I want to give people the opportunity to experience ADOM the way that I did? You are suggesting that I never tell somebody they should try to play the game without cheating. That is not something I am capable of because I know how it was for me and maybe it will be fun for them too.
I will never however tell any new face that comes here this more than once.

Why do previous savescummers stop doing it and play legit?

If you give people save-points they will however never have the opportunity to play ADOM in this way. Every game will be a "win". They will spend countless boring and frustrating attempts getting through the same parts of the game with exactly the same character. This is not what ADOM is going to become I hope.

It is much more fun dying and starting with a new game and not having to go through the same area with the same character, I would think. I have played games with savepoints and many of them I never bothered trying to finish.

I don't know, can you tell me perhaps, how often do savescummers save? If I have that answer I can maybe visualize the proposed change better.

Edit - Sorry, just one more question. How long did it take you, not only LFk, that used this 'training' technique to get your first legit win?

[Silfir]

Savescumming provides a special kind of thrill and completely gets rid of that sinking feeling when you reload after dying and realize you have to play several hours just to get where you were at the time of death. I despise the latter and I love the former, but if one gets nothing out of the thrill and doesn't mind saving and replaying from saves savescumming is a valid way to enjoy oneself, too. That's up to each and every one themselves.

Once ADOM gets released on Steam, it will get full savegame management support - that much I think has been clear for years. Free ADOM will still be available after that, and since it's free, it can reflect Thomas' own personal philosophy and roguelike tradition by not including the feature.



I'm not sure what people are even discussing here. I don't think there is a serious effort going on by anybody to introduce anti-savescumming measures, nor is savegame support going to be added to free ADOM. What pressing need is there to change this arrangement?

[LFk]

Edit - Sorry, just one more question. How long did it take you, not only LFk, that used this 'training' technique to get your first legit win?

Maybe a few months? I didn't scum ADOM, I played Nethack for quite a while so I got all my scumming out on that game before I knew it was a thing. I was spoiled here and there, though probably not to the extent that there is nowadays with a full Improved Guidebook. This was 1999, it was just whatever people wrote on that old Brinkster forum. Still, it helped dramatically with the nastiest encounters of the game like ToEF, which obviously is a pretty huge deal that can shave months of failures off.

I'm not sure what people are even discussing here. I don't think there is a serious effort going on by anybody to introduce anti-savescumming measures, nor is savegame support going to be added to free ADOM. What pressing need is there to change this arrangement?

Nothing at all game-wise. I believe the game's direction on the topic of saves has always been as stated. All philosophical. I think everyone should be encouraged to enjoy the game as they feel is most fun, without being told what is "more fun". A true ADOM is always available for those who want it.

[Stingray1]

Why did you scum nethack and not ADOM? Sorry, for these questions LFk. It's just me being curious as to how these things work.

Edit - Anyway, I have decided I'm not going to give anyone any more 'advise' as you have convinced me that it is most likely not appreciated. But, in return please answer the above question.