Tackling the new quests & maps for ADOM

[_Ln_]

Essence of Chaos is not a big deal for endgame PCs, anyway. It might add a corruption or two more than you'd have otherwise by the time you get around to winning, but probably not much more than that.

Wielding the sword will alone without any other sources of corruption give you 1 corruption every 500 turns. Finishing the game is far from killing the ACW with the shield. Hell, clearing D:50 in melee will net you 3-4-5 extra corruptions from a weapon without slaying powers and intrinsic cursing. 1d8 hp per successful hit is laughable and not even close to regen.

[_Ln_]

Honestly there has to come a point where you can't expect TB to go to unreasonable lengths to keep people from being neurotic.

I've never quit when I've accidentially killed a cat. For that matter I use a wide variety of weapons - not just spears - and play the game in whatever order I feel like. I really think you're overstating people thinking this would be "mandatory" - after all, most people don't feel ultras as mandatory. It would certainly be a nice quest for those who aren't doing ultra-endings, to get them a really cool weapon to finish the game with. If you are doing an ultra, this quest would be almost worthless as A) it'd take too much time and corruption and B) by the time you're finishing it, you're almost ready to get the TotRR anyway. Kind of the same reason I really wish Needle+Sting was adjusted, actually. They're amazing weapons, but you don't really ever use them since you are usually either A) are about to get the TotRR or B) are about to finish the game. I've actually never played a normal ending where I've gotten Needle+Sting, but it might actually be pretty cool... *goes off to start a dual-wielding assassin*

And Tannis: What about a unique monster, "Stone Giant King" or "Stone Giant Duke" (to complement the frost giant Earls ) or something?

Blame the Guidebook for that.

[Dogbreath]

I don't think I need to blame anybody?

This may be a language barrier thing, but I got annoyed by Grey calling this quest "mandatory" because that's pretty much antithetical to the entire nature of ADOM. ADOM has *no* mandatory quests. That's the beauty of it! You don't even need to do thr portal quest - you can just kill the Dwarven elder instead. And the best designed quests in ADOM have more than one wsy to complete them. (i.e, the healer quest)

IMO this is the absolutr best thing about ADOM. That you can actually *roleplay* and choose what quests you want to do, how you want to play, what dungeons you explore, your conduct, your equipment, etc. It's completely up to you. I really don't want this changed (or great quest idea ignored) because players like Grey think quests ought to be mandatory and you should feel forced to do one thing or another. Just let the player decide, please! If they want to be neurotic completionists, well, that's their choice to make. Maybe they enjoy playing that way? Why should I judge? It's not TB's job to guide them along on a string, or to make everything so balanced and boring that nobodg really wants to get them. There are plenty of other games like that.

[_Ln_]

I don't think I need to blame anybody?

I mean huge amounts of player think that some things in ADOM are a must-have where in fact they aren't. This leads to a certain set of habits appearing and impacting all subsequent games. And a major cause for some of the things is Guidebook.

What Grey says is not that the quests should be mandatory - he says that the rewards are often too good to ignore the tediousness and that's why people do it every time in the exact same way. Since Maze buff I do it every game and I will continue to do it every game despite the huge bucket of hatred I feel every time I have to backtrack. Rewards are too good to resist.

[Dogbreath]

No they're not. They're there and tempting for a reason - to make you try and get them. (and possibly die in the process) I will agree that the Maze is a horrendous abomination before God and man and needs to be destroyed, but that's a fairly unique example. But it's perfectly easy to simply skip those quests if you don't want them. Like, my one ultra I won was because I found all tbe prerequisite items fairly on. I wouldn't spend hours grinding for them. Again, I'm not sure hiw many players are like you guys, though I know roguelikes do attract neurotic people. But there are plenty of people like me who have *no* problem resisting temptation and enjoy the current reward/risk system. I would rather not have the game be made boring and dreary to appease people with no willpower.

[SirTheta]

I will agree that the Maze is a horrendous abomination before God and man and needs to be destroyed

Amen to this. Even with the rewards, I still refuse to do it unless I have lots of magic map and stunning (i.e. almost never) because it's basically the worst location in ADOM.

I also agree that I'd like to see all quests included because if I like them, I'd like to do them. Enjoying the game is much more important than completing stuff for me - I'd probably never do JS's epic quest, for instance because it's just too much damn work. If people want to be neurotic, then all the more power to them, but I don't want to have my game choices restricted because someone else is a completionist.

[_Ln_]

No they're not. They're there and tempting for a reason - to make you try and get them. (and possibly die in the process) I will agree that the Maze is a horrendous abomination before God and man and needs to be destroyed, but that's a fairly unique example. But it's perfectly easy to simply skip those quests if you don't want them. Like, my one ultra I won was because I found all tbe prerequisite items fairly on. I wouldn't spend hours grinding for them. Again, I'm not sure hiw many players are like you guys, though I know roguelikes do attract neurotic people. But there are plenty of people like me who have *no* problem resisting temptation and enjoy the current reward/risk system. I would rather not have the game be made boring and dreary to appease people with no willpower.

Hey, I'm not for making quests non-guaranteed. It's just that the problem is existent, so it may be prudent to try to address it in some way (randomize the rewards, whatnot).

[Stingray1]

Not so long ago I swore(and I was sincere) that I would never ever do the maze again even if there was all the artifacts and 98 blessed PoGA as a reward. I've completed it twice since that. The rewards aren't worth it though.

But I do think the maze should remain in its current state and the rewards not be changed.

BTW, I've counted 5 new monsters added to the new location thus far, excluding the queen. We were only supposed to see 4. Not complaining though.

[Grey]

The Maze was the key to me breaking my completionist approach to games. I did that place too many times, and hated it every damned time.

So please, no more horrible zones like that! No long-winded scummy requirements. No arduous, boring levels. Quests should be fun, not a slog.

[Dogbreath]

My main problem with the Maze is it simply isn't fun. Ever. There's just no way to enjoy any aspect of it. I already do too much crap like that at work going over endless spreadsheets, it's exactly the sort of thing I want to avoid in my free time.

I'd like to see it redesigned to be challenging and actually more difficult (so you have a non-zero chance of dying), but actually *fun* to complete.