I think it is best to be arduous and not fun, because at the end of it you feel great joy that it is over and you've collected the rewards. If it is fun and not arduous that feeling will be lost. The joy at the end is the real reward. Also it teaches one perseverance and how to cope with frustration, I think, more than 100s of dead characters does. Or so I recall it doing for me when I first got stuck inside there some years back. Of course nowadays I've learned the 'scums', so it's not as bad as then and I can also handle the tediousness of it better, most likely due to it being so tedious the first time around.
Maze levels are just boring in roguelikes. Full stop. They generated uninteresting tactical environments, and are brainless and time consuming to complete. The only thing worse is Sokoban.
I have tried the maze once and I was successful with rather little effort. Antennae are just brilliant in there ;-) I think that it's a nice option and since it's absolutely optional, it is also no problem for all those who don't like it. So (in my eyes) there's no need to argue about it.
My band: http://messerschmitt-speed.com
... for those old school Heavy Metal maniacs among you
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My youtube-profile: http://www.youtube.com/GordonOverkillManiac
... with lots of ADOM videos, including several complete successful play-throughs and tutorials for beginners
I have tried the maze once and I was successful with rather little effort. Antennae are just brilliant in there ;-) I think that it's a nice option and since it's absolutely optional, it is also no problem for all those who don't like it. So (in my eyes) there's no need to argue about it.
My first time in the maze, I had no magic mapping (or antenna) and a little teleport (think it was on a Paladin). I hit no fake levels (w/o using trap trick), found the bottom in like 10-15 minutes real time, dominated the mino emp and made it out without any stat drains. (gut was amazed)
Having been there three times since, that's not at all how it goes and it's a fucking nightmare down there. After being stuck there for over an hour once, I had to use the trap trick to get to the bottom. (Note: it takes a lot of people around 10-12 hours to finish the game, so this is quite significant for one little location). On p7, I luckily had Stun + MM on a Mist Elf Beastfighter and the top trap trick still worked, so that only took about half an hour, but on p17 (after the change), having +Tele and Stunning & MM (spells) it took me well over 45 minutes to get to the bottom and it was a horrible experience (having to explore some 6-8 fake levels since I didn't have infinite PP).
So basically, the maze is extremely tedious and not fun about 90% of the time. I've always argued that the fake levels should be abolished and the rewards toned down (or put back to what they were - they weren't that great originally) - 7 maze levels (with hard monsters, traps, and fake walls eventually) is plenty of tediousness without the computer-breaking-rage-inducing fake levels thrown in.
My first time in the maze, I had no magic mapping (or antenna) and a little teleport (think it was on a Paladin). I hit no fake levels (w/o using trap trick), found the bottom in like 10-15 minutes real time, dominated the mino emp and made it out without any stat drains. (gut was amazed)
Having been there three times since, that's not at all how it goes and it's a fucking nightmare down there. After being stuck there for over an hour once, I had to use the trap trick to get to the bottom. (Note: it takes a lot of people around 10-12 hours to finish the game, so this is quite significant for one little location). On p7, I luckily had Stun + MM on a Mist Elf Beastfighter and the top trap trick still worked, so that only took about half an hour, but on p17 (after the change), having +Tele and Stunning & MM (spells) it took me well over 45 minutes to get to the bottom and it was a horrible experience (having to explore some 6-8 fake levels since I didn't have infinite PP).
So basically, the maze is extremely tedious and not fun about 90% of the time. I've always argued that the fake levels should be abolished and the rewards toned down (or put back to what they were - they weren't that great originally) - 7 maze levels (with hard monsters, traps, and fake walls eventually) is plenty of tediousness without the computer-breaking-rage-inducing fake levels thrown in.
This. I think the first chance of dying in there is running out of cooked lizards. The second one is dying of frustration (and the consequences). Apart from abolishing fake levels, I am also for introducing some random open rooms, just to make maps a bit more memorable and stratgic. And please the stairs in a clear place not in these hallways. I have been told the rewards were buffed, but I am still not going in there again without unlimited magic map and teleportation.
EDIT: might also add the possibly of adding nasty tension/full of monster rooms, as in the caverns without walls. A horde of titans swarming a level and chasing you through the maze might certainly be fun!
On quests:
Procedurally generated content is important. I agree with Silfir that ideas like the camp site idea (stone giant or goblins) are boring as long as no significant element of procedurally generated content is in it (the maze has it but you could call it as exciting as a flickering screen at night).
I also like the epicness of JS quest and that it has different routes. However, it becomes a bit too epic (i.e., lots of work) to do it in the final stage. To craft the decision tree for the chaotic and lawful routes, there should be something seriously useful in each of the ways to go, and ideally, this should not be a weapon in both cases, as that#s too similar.
Stupid example but if there was a quest decision: go for the super weapon or go down the other road to obtain some potion of rejunevation/lots of youth, the choice you might make can be different in some games according to utility (compare healing and the frost bold book or herbalism). Another situationally useful reward might be a high amount of potions of booze that a non-spell caster might want for his wands of poison and teleportation, but rewards like this must not be available for no cost. You must choose them over other really good choices, so the obvious choice can vary.
Last edited by Evil Knievel; 01-12-2014 at 08:26 AM.
So basically, the maze is extremely tedious and not fun about 90% of the time. I've always argued that the fake levels should be abolished and the rewards toned down (or put back to what they were - they weren't that great originally) - 7 maze levels (with hard monsters, traps, and fake walls eventually) is plenty of tediousness without the computer-breaking-rage-inducing fake levels thrown in.
I'd argue that the current rewards are perfectly fine and I don't want any fake levels removed. If the place is such a nightmare for you to handle then just don't go there.
I think Maze should be even deeper, perhaps all the way to lvl 10. I once took almost an hour to reach the bottom with my duelist. Imagine my joy when the random artifact turned out to be executor.
I breezed through the rest of the game using it and got my stats to 30ies thanks to all the PoGA also from the maze. The rewards are amazing, the tediousness and difficulty of the maze should reflect that.
If the rewards are brought down to what they used to be then I will never visit the maze again, even if the fake levels were abolished.
I did the maze this week for the first time in my ADOM career. I had loads of castings of teleport and magic mapping, and it was actually fun. On the other hand, without teleport or magic mapping there's no way in hell I'd set my foot there, it would be horribly tedious.
But maybe that's the way that it's designed. Get teleport and magic map, and you have a good resource there. Don't get them, and you won't get the rewards unless you're a masochist. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, it may add interesting strategic decisions like wishing for spellbooks of magic map, which can now be a serious temptation for many characters. And there's also the additional twist that heavy magic users, which have it easier to do the maze, take less advantage of the axe. The classes for which the reward would be most valuable (like barbarians) have a harder time to get the resources needed for a non-tedious trip through the maze.
The masochist way of just going there without magic map (and to a lesser extent teleport)... honestly, I think the maze is just not designed for that, or if it is, it shouldn't be. So IMHO whoever do that only have themselves to blame for the ensuing tedium. For me, it's a place to go with the adequate resources, just as you wouldn't go to the ToEF without resistances (except in a challenge game).
Whatever is done, the rewards shouldn't be nerfed. Until now, the maze was a part of the game that might as well not have been there at all, because almost no one went there. Now at the very least people go. I'm not opposed to possible improvements to the maze levels (although as I said, the way I see it it's OK) but nerfing the rewards again wouldn't make sense. I don't think people would do the maze without magic mapping for the previous rewards, even without the false levels. I know I wouldn't do it.
Last edited by Al-Khwarizmi; 01-12-2014 at 11:07 PM.
Quest: Voyage to the dream world
A world of clouds, winds, mirages, dreams, and nightmares.
The quest:
When you reach level 40, you have a vision of Ruun which asks for your help and recalls you to Dwarftown. Arrived there, you find the priest in Thrundarr's house; he informs you that the elder is under an hideous curse, which has trapped him in his nightmares, unable to wake up. To save him, you must go into the dream world and defeat whoever is responsible.
The first thing Ruun asks is the corpse of a monster which causes sleep. Once you find and give the corpse to Ruun, he distills two potions, a potion of sleep that will make you travel to the source of troubles, and a potion of awakening to come back.
"You drink the potion of sleep. For a moment, a sweet languor flow through your body, then a sudden clutch squeezes you out of yourself. You float, flow, fly... fast... plains forests mountains... clouds... At last, you land on a misty, drifting plane."
You arrived at the first map of the quest.
Some remarks:
- the quest is available to PCs of any alignment (Ruun is desperate enough to leave his prejudices aside)
- each map has its own color, i.e. the walls and the floor symbols of the map are of that color
- no digging or teleportation is possible in any of the maps
- only the last level has background corruption
- you can drink the potion of awakening at any time to return to Dwarftown, but doing so without defeating the boss means that you fail the quest and Thrundarr dies horribly as soon as you are back. To avoid 'funny' situations, the potion should be flagged as indestructible and jump back in your inventory when you go to another level
The levels:
For the sake of brevity, I'll put each level in spoiler brackets --- an idea I stole from JellySlayer, I hope that's considered a lawful act ;-)
Level 1: Misty Plane
Color: white
This level is an open wilderness area, with white floor and some rocky terrain here and there, like a cloud which lingers around the peaks of the mountains (but don't take this too seriously, you are in the dream world after all). It's very windy, which means it has the same effect as shifting-breeze rooms, and very humid (vulnerable items may rust).
Common monsters which roam the plane: harpies, air demons, vapor rats, mist wolves, giant sharks.
Level 2: Illusion Level
Color: light red
This level has the layout of a normal dungeon, but it is far from normal. The place is all about illusions and dirty tricks; for example:
- a squad of copies of yourself walks steadily toward you; they are all illusions, except one which is a doppleganger king
- a group of children playing? Actually, they are hags
- yes, there are illusionary walls, but they love to turn into real walls now and then (and likewise for some sections of real wall)
- you reach the stairs, only to see them change into a master mimic
Even traps, which abound in the level, can surprise you. You trigger a water trap, and discover that a greater water elemental was resting in it; trigger a fireball trap, and the flames around you change into ancient red dragons. Corruption traps are home to WMoPCs, which surround you when you trigger the trap.
Common monsters: fairy dragons, invisible stalkers, animated armors, gibbering mouthers, will o'wisps, all types of eyes, mimics, dopplegangers.
Level 3: Thunder Lair
Color: light gray
A cavernous level.
Common monsters: Air elementals, lightning vortices, great blue wyrms. And a new monster, the air dragon; here are two short descriptions:
Code:
As a strong gush of wind pushes a cloud nearby, something tries to reach out
of it and seize you. Looking more carefully, you notice that the cloud has
features: claws, a serpentine body, a slender snout and fierce eyes!
The air dragon turns around swiftly, plunges in your direction and open
its mouth; your body shivers with terror at the sight of a thundering,
dazzling globe.
Code:
Only the few who dared climb the highest peaks of Ancardia have seen these
creatures of legend. Worshipped in some places as wardens of the storm,
air dragons are rumored to spend their millenary lives without ever touching
the ground. They race and surpass the fastest winds and make their nests
in the thunderclouds.
Air dragons:
- have penetrating attacks (air can find its way anywhere)
- are very fast and immune to shock
- breathe ball lightnings (similar to glowing balls, but they do lightning damage)
- have a tendency to move and attack in flocks (hopefully the new group tactics feature is just what is needed for this)
- have neutral alignment
Level 4: Golden Temple
Color: yellow
A temple surrounded by a river, with winding, long corridors. Its golden walls cannot be destroyed by any known or unknown means (the T's in the map are trees)
Common monsters: ki-rins, solars, holy slayers, white unicorns. Maybe a new type of monster, gold statues (regenerate, see invisible, lots of PV, immune to all elemental attacks).
If you wonder what these creatures are doing here: the villain spellbound and trapped them in this level to discourage lawful would-be heroes.
Level 5: Dark Tunnel
Color: black
A place filled with darkness and nightmares. And dark means really dark. Torches, wands of light, the Light spell won't do you any good here. Try to use a torch or zap a wand of light, "The torch/wand bursts in flames. An hollow laughter echoes in your head." Cast the spell, "You muster all of your power to fight off the darkness... in vain", which means the spell didn't work and your PP went down to zero in the process.
If you wear an amulet of light, you can barely see yourself and monsters which stand next to you (the most the amulet can do in this place is light a measly area around you, not big enough to reach the floor; the wall are still too black to be seen, even if you are next to them).
The level is a long, zigzag tunnel, like this:
The 'h' at the center of the circle is the boss to defeat. He is RRad'Nurht the dwarven Chaos Shaman. He's literally Thrundarr's anxieties and nightmares, which have been seized, twisted and made real by ChAoS:
Code:
For a moment you stand dumbfounded, gazing in disbelief to the dwarf before
you. Your eyes trace every wrinkle of the familiar face which you have come to
know and cherish in the first steps of your journey. But this is no Thrundarr.
The body is wirier, it creeps you out in an undefined way. Black pits of hatred
have replaced the kind eyes. The posture is bent, his arms around the chest,
as if trying to keep something from breaking free. You realize with horror
that the creature sucking the elder's life away is not a mere warlock, evil as
he might be, but the embodiment of his worries and nightmares, taken by ChAoS
and molded in this wicked travesty. Sorrow and shame fill your soul: you had
pondered not once over the strain of the dwarven ruler, who confronted the
chaotic incursions and saw more and more of his people fall for a corrupted
knighthood, while he waited for the hero of the prophecies. You have no time
for grieving, though. The shaman begins a whispering chant, a purple haze
floods the ground; suddenly the nightmares start to multiply...
The chaos shaman:
- confuses
- paralyzes
- is immune to shock and resistant to the other elements
- has a cold attack, like ogre magi
- can summon any of the creatures common in the previous levels
- has a special power: he can create multiple images of himself and switch at will between the images, so that you cannot never be sure which is the real one and which the illusions (I think I saw this power in a villain from an old TV series, but don't ask me his name; I am not even sure what the series was)
The rewards:
Both Thrundarr and Ruun will reward you for this quest. The elder gives you a boatload of gold. The priest asks you to choose the kind of reward you want: items to enhance your magic or your fighting power; these rewards are semi-randomized, i.e. the game selects them randomly from a restricted list of items.
If you choose magic, you receive:
- two blessed vials of three potions, chosen randomly out of: mana, willpower, learning (and the respective potions of potential stat), raw mana
- two wands out of: fireballs, teleportation, acid, destruction, death
- two copies of three spellbooks, out of: Acid Ball, Fire Ball, Improved Fire Ball, Ice Ball, Lightning Ball, Death Ray, Cure Critical Wounds, Teleportation, Wish
- one item out of: ring of regeneration, amulet of perseverance (Wi +7), ring of elemental mastery, ring of mental stability [+3, +3] (Le+4)
If you choose fighting, you receive:
- two blessed vials of three potions, out of: strength, toughness, dexterity (and the respective potions of potential stat), troll blood
- two wands out of: paralyzation, poison, destruction, magic missiles, stunning
- powerful weapons of two types, based on your weapon skills in this way: the game checks in what weapons you have skill level greater than 7 and chooses two of them randomly (if there is only one or none above 7, it just picks the two with highest levels); then you receive two weapons, one of each type, with a suffix *and* a prefix out of: (brutal, murderous, poisonous, weeping, wicked) and (of devastation, of mayhem, of penetration, of slaughtering, of the eagle). If one of the types is daggers, add a chance to obtain a phase dagger; likewise with swords, add a chance for sword of sharpness.
- one item out of: ring of regeneration, ring of slaying, amulet of free action, ring of speed [0,+4]
While gambling at the Casino, there is a small chance that the PC will win an "eternium token" (the odds of winning it increase at lower valued slot machines). Upon winning the token, the Casino Shopkeeper will reveal that the token allows access to the High Rollers Club, an exclusive part of the Casino. A new stairwell is revealed in the bottom left corner of the Casino area allowing access to this area.
The High Rollers Club will feature several things of interest. Most importantly is the succubus nymph. This creature will offer to gamble with the PC--you will bet some of your lifeforce in exchange for an item of "great value". The PC will be gambling on the victor of two monsters fighting in an arena inaccessible from the area. If the PC wins, they will receive, in order: A scroll of chaos removal, a ring of elemental mastery, an indecipherable map. If they lose, they will lose 5 points in a random stat. The prize is the indecipherable map.
Bring the map to the Mad Minstrel. He will offer to translate the map for you if you are willing to settle his debts with the Demonic Godfather located in the High Rollers Club. There are two ways to do this. One is to simply kill the Demonic Godfather. He is a formidable opponent with a powerful, paralyzing melee attack, who can heal himself and cast invisibility. The other inhabitants of the High Rollers Club will also attack, including the stat draining succubus nymph, and several powerful demonic guardians. This is an incredibly challenging battle. Alternately, speaking to the Demonic Godfather, he will agree to wipe the Minstrel's debts clean in exchange for the head of a Ki-rin Prince. He informs you that there is a stronghold of Ki-rin located in the plains near Terinyo. The ki-rin stronghold is a three level tower dungeon featuring various lawful monsters including white unicorns, ki-rins, etc. These will be initially peaceful to lawful PCs. The ki-rin prince will be on the top of the dungeon, guarded by several ki-rins and other lawful beasts. Killing him or attacking any of the lawful monsters in the area will turn in all of the monsters in the area hostile.
Once the Ki-rin Prince is slain and the Demonic Godfather appeased, or the Demonic Godfather himself is slain, the Mad Minstrel will translate the map. It reveals the location of the Fountain of Eternal Youth. This fountain can be reached through an undersea cavern in northern lake, which is revealed. The undersea dungeon will be five levels deep: Two regular underwater levels, two cavernous underwater levels, and one normal level containing the fountain. The underwater levels will contain, among other things, (greater) water elementals, water grues, dragon turtles, krakens, (queen) water nymphs, water wisps. On the bottom level, the PC will find the fountain and a timeless wanderer. The wanderer will ask you to destroy the fountain without drinking from it and free him from his imprisonment, offering a powerful artifact for you to do so.
Krakens are a beast-type monster with above-average speed, and 8 powerful melee attacks. They can create darkness.
Water nympths are a humanoid spellcaster that cast confusion, stat drain, and heal self. They can shoot poison arrows.
Queen water nympths cast confusion, stat drain, heal self, death ray, and can summon krakens. They can shoot poison arrows.
Water wisps are a wil'o'wisp type monster with a standard melee attack.
Drinking from the fountain completely removes unnatural aging and adds 10000 years to the PC's lifespan.
Kicking the fountain and destroying it will release the timeless wanderer, leaving behind the following artifact:
Bracers of Virtue [+7,+7] {+10 speed, +16 Ap}
They increase your luck.
They make fate smile upon you.
They cause your wounds to regenerate.
They move your alignment towards lawful.
They protect against paralysis.
They protect against death rays.
Last edited by JellySlayer; 02-09-2014 at 06:25 AM.
Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.
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Originally Posted by GordonOverkill
