Game Balance: Slaying Ammo is Too Powerful

[Superteeth]

Hello everyone. I am surprised that either no one has mentioned this, or I did not search hard enough to find it. Regardless, if it was mentioned before, it has obviously not been fixed in the most recent version of ADOM. Why is slaying ammo so ridiculously overpowered? Even though it has been mentioned that archers are overpowered as a class, any class (perhaps barring duelists) can be extraordinarily powerful just by having some slaying ammo on hand. It is used to drop many end-game bosses in 3-4 shots, and that is not really in line with what I would expect someone like the Emperor Moloch or a greater balor to take. It is also somewhat anti-climactic that end-game bosses are falling after bristling with a grand total of 3 arrows. After so many things have been nerfed or fixed in 1.2.0, slaying ammo still needs to be addressed (unless Biskup gave a reason why he does not want to nerf it).

[JellySlayer]

IIRC, the reason slaying ammo is so powerful is that critical hits on missile attacks can do 2-6x damage (plus blessing bonus, etc.), whereas melee criticals only do 2x damage. While arrows and quarrels have low base damage (1d6 and 2d6, respectively), you can still get some pretty large bonuses to damage through mastery, Dx, talents, etc. So a slaying arrow could easily have a damage of 1d6+30, which can get up to a 6x multiplier on it.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to submit this as a balance RFE. There's no particular reason why missiles need such a massive critical hit modifier.

[SirTheta]

While I mostly despise missile weapons and use them very little, I think slaying ammo is mostly fine as-is because the game would be much, much harder for melee classes if it didn't exist as-is. Despite my distaste for them, I complete almost every game having used them in at least one situation (often the Earth Temple, but in my most recent game it was actually just to help clear a large threat room of diamond golems in UL).

I do think lowering the multiplier to something like 2-4x instead of 2-6x (which is what it is right now iirc?) would be a good idea, but I think it's fine that there are overpowered things in the game (unless we want to start removing acid ball, etc.).

[Soirana]

IIRC, the reason slaying ammo is so powerful is that critical hits on missile attacks can do 2-6x damage

The local love to absurd statements does not stop to surprise me - maybe I should go delete more posts....

I always believed it is 4x which gets to 2-6 due to cursed/bleesed being 0.5/1.5

[JellySlayer]

Sorry, 3-6 with slaying missiles :eyeroll:

[Superteeth]

I do think lowering the multiplier to something like 2-4x instead of 2-6x (which is what it is right now iirc?) would be a good idea, but I think it's fine that there are overpowered things in the game (unless we want to start removing acid ball, etc.).

Speaking of overpowered, is there a logical reason as to why bolts can be shrugged off, but ball attack spells cannot? It is part of the reason why wizards and decent spell-casting classes are overpowered (although I guess you could say this power is somewhat balanced by the extreme frailty of wizards and decent spell-casters). Just use the appropriate ball spells, and nothing can shrug them off. It makes me wonder why Biskup bothered giving the quickling bard Filk 500 DV when it doesn't matter because any weak ball spell will kill him in one casting. Surely at that point in the game no one is going to try to melee boss-type monsters anyways, they will probably just blast them with ball spells or shoot them up with slaying ammo.

[SirTheta]

Speaking of overpowered, is there a logical reason as to why bolts can be shrugged off, but ball attack spells cannot?

Ball spells are summoned from the aether and completely envelop the area where they are cast. Bolts simply take up some indeterminate but small amount of space.

Surely at that point in the game no one is going to try to melee boss-type monsters anyways, they will probably just blast them with ball spells or shoot them up with slaying ammo.

Not me

[Soirana]

IIRC, the reason slaying ammo is so powerful is that critical hits on missile attacks can do 2-6x damage (plus blessing bonus, etc.),

Sorry, 3-6 with slaying missiles :eyeroll:

For start two facts:
I've heard eyes make for good salad.
I've also heard criticals are actually stable increase in damage. Or no - they actually do 0.5 to 6. And most surely they also autohit suff.

[Silfir]

Missile weapons in general are a great balancing fail-safe; almost all characters have unfettered access to them and can become competent enough to fight effectively even into the late game. With the proper slaying ammo, characters who have a very hard time winning a straight-up fight otherwise are back in business.

ADOM heroes, especially those who aren't blessed with ultimate arcane power or otherwise class-based facewrecking prowess, generally rely on guile, preparation and a well-sorted toolbox to come out with victories in nightmarish confrontations with the forces of Chaos themselves. Potions of confusion, wands of paralyzation, the list goes on. Slaying ammo provides killing power equivalent to what even the strongest classes can do, to everyone - but is always in a limited supply. When you're staring down a dragon, frantically look through your pack and find no more than six quarrels of dragon slaying for your trusty spare light crossbow, you need them to count.

The counter-balancing factor to slaying ammo damage modifiers is already present in the game: It's that you only get a limited number of them. If the boss monster in question has competitive DV, half of those are going to miss entirely. If the other half only does double damage, it's going to make a difference, sure, but not an overwhelming one. It's unlikely to deliver on what the name promises: Slaying things. These are single-use items crafted for a specific purpose; they need to deliver, and hard, the one time you get to even use them. A slaying melee weapon stays in your hand for swing after swing; even with only double damage criticals, it will be more than powerful enough to feel awesome and be worth using.

There aren't many viable ways to play many of the weaker classes to begin with. Nerfing perhaps the greatest source of raw killing power they can obtain is just going to increase the gap to wizards, archers, barbarians even more. That's the opposite of balance.

[grobblewobble]

they will probably just blast them with ball spells or shoot them up with slaying ammo.

If you're shooting Filk, you want unerring arrows rather than slaying.

I'm not sure slaying ammo is really that much better than disabling wands / potions. Now that orb guardians resist some of those, maybe it is in some cases. But against many big monsters, a wand of paralyzation (etc) is just as effective as slaying ammo.